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KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw)KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw)Posted Jul 12, 2008 17:22 UTC (Sat) by boudewijn (subscriber, #14185)In reply to: KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw) by mikov Parent article: KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw)
If it doesn't make sense to you it's probably because you're not a developer, so you wouldn't be aware how these things work. To start with your second point: our experience is that nobody installs and tests alphas, betas or release candidates anymore. Which means no user testing -- basically, the users are reneging on their responsibility. (Not all of them, we've got Christophe Giboudeaux who's testing our Krita alpha releases and he's absolutely a brilliant bug reporter. But there aren't many like him.) But that's not the most important thing. Almost all of KDE 4.0 was pretty stable, except for the the desktop component. The reason plasma wasn't stable is directly related to your first question. Until there's are release, libraries and api's aren't stable. It's a simple matter of fact, and you can either understand it or not, but it doesn't change the fact that right up to the first rc, developers will break binary and source compatibility. Even more importantly, there are many app developers who are _not_ comfortable with tracking subversion or alpha and beta releases. They want to install a final release of the libraries and code against that. And the libraries in KDE 4.0 were absolutely fine. We're still targetting KDE 4.0 with KOffice, for instance. KDE 4.0 was ready for developers and adventurous users. KDE 4.0.4 is ready for daily use, if you use your computer for work and not for tweaking your desktop. KDE 4.1rc1 is a stable, featureful and great dekstop.
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KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw) Posted Jul 12, 2008 22:49 UTC (Sat) by mikov (subscriber, #33179) [Link] If it doesn't make sense to you it's probably because you're not a developer, so you wouldn't be aware how these things work. I've been a developer for more than 15 years, thank you, so I know a thing or two about how these things work :-) But that's not the point - I will be the first to admit that managing and releasing a free software project is very different from a proprietary one, and I only have major first-hand experience with the latter. I think I understand and strongly sympathize with the KDE developers, but I still think that ultimately they made a mistake. To start with your second point: our experience is that nobody installs and tests alphas, betas or release candidates anymore. Which means no user testing -- basically, the users are reneging on their responsibility. I hear you about users not wanting to test beta versions any more. This is a serious problem, but I suspect that shoving beta software to unsuspecting users may not be the best approach. BTW, the distributions who bundled KDE 4.0 by default are also very much to blame here. KDE is a victim of its own success - we have gotten used to very polished releases, with practically no visible bugs, and every new release adding more flexibility and functionality without removing any. KDE4 broke that tradition, and whatever the justifications are, the backslash is undeniable. Even Vista is more backward compatible with XP than KDE4 with KDE3 ! Take me for example. As far as KDE is concerned I am strictly a user. I use my desktop for work and I am so used to it, and so productive with it (again, thank you KDE!), that I don't even notice it anymore. This is how it should be. If I upgrade to a new version of KDE, I need everything to remain exactly the same, so I can immediately continue to be productive, and I can explore the exciting new features at my own pace, when and if I have time. I think that this is unavoidable as Linux (and KDE and Gnome, etc) become more widely accepted and established. The projects just can't afford to make such drastic changes. Fortunately, I don't think what happened with KDE4 is such a big deal and I am sure the backslash will subside eventually. I am reasonably hopeful that Debian (my platform of choice) will not make a stable release with KDE4 before it is fully ready.
KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw) Posted Jul 17, 2008 21:29 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] If it doesn't make sense to you it's probably because you're not a developerI've been a developer for more than 15 years, thank you Today's mantra: "Any assumption I make about someone querying me is certain to bite me in the ass when they read my reply". I've seen so many exchanges like the above, I can't believe I'm still seeing them...
KDE on KDE 4.0 (Groklaw) Posted Jul 13, 2008 8:17 UTC (Sun) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] Was there much user testing of KDE 4.0? Speaking for myself, I tried it, couldn't believe how unfinished it was, and left. I didn't bother reporting any bugs -- the issues were glaringly obvious, and aseigo made it clear that he knows what all the issues are and either they're being worked on or the user is misguided for asking. I don't think I'd have been alone. It speaks a lot of the goodwill the KDE project has that many people (including me) are now willing to give 4.1 a try, and it speaks well of what has been achieved that we are now willing to ignore its rough edges (of which many remain). I don't think anything would have been lost by delaying the release by another 6 months and calling the current version 4.0. But that's all history now; if things go well I don't think there will be a long-term impact.
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