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Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Richard Stallman joins the discussion on the future of the OLPC project. "Some enthusiasts of the GNU/Linux system are extremely disappointed by the prospect that the XO, if it is a success, will not be a platform for the system they love. Those who have supported the OLPC project with their effort or their money may well feel betrayed. However, those concerns are dwarfed by what is at stake here: whether the XO is an influence for freedom or an influence for subjection."
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Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 15:11 UTC (Wed) by wesmo (subscriber, #50706) [Link]

I'd love to see an eeepc with coreboot + gNewSense payload replacing the current
splashtop/xandros fud....

Free Eee

Posted May 3, 2008 10:29 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

The EeePc is beautifully supported by Debian, and there is a wiki devoted to it. The wifi chip still requires a proprietary driver, but most of it just works. There are even some ACPI drivers for the function keys and the internal fan. It takes a bit of work to put it all together though.

Of course, a custom free distro would be excellent news, and it should not be that much work. If it was restricted to free packages and it included XFCE it would potentially be heaven.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 15:52 UTC (Wed) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

"whether the XO is an influence for freedom or an influence for subjection."

Strange - I thought it was all about helping the kids and not about promoting anyone's agenda.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 16:05 UTC (Wed) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

One could easily argue that Stallman's very perceptive analysis is
about helping both the kids and the adults and society they will enter.

"Promoting an agenda" is right up there with "political" as an empty 
term of opprobrium used to dismiss without analysis, and in fact to 
belittle the entire possibility of basing policy on analytical inquiry.  

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 22:22 UTC (Wed) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

See, it's your sort of comment that encourages the "freetard" meme where people will spout off
all sorts of phraseology about wisdom and freedom whilst glossing over the fact that they're
trying to get a manufacturer of *general*purpose* computers to arbitrarily not support certain
operating systems running on them because of personal biases - locking out choice at the sales
end.

Your "freedom" is all about removing choices that purchasers around the world want to make,
whether it be Windows on the XO or XP on the Eee.

If nobody bought Eee's to run XP on them, you'd be right. If nobody bought XO's to run
Windows, then you'd be right too. But the fact is people *want* to do those things.

Real freedom allows people to make choices without your preapproval. Stop feeding the
"freetard" meme and allow people to make silly choices if they are so inclined.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 1:41 UTC (Thu) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link]

I see.  Shall we enable the freedom for people to enter into slavery?  Let's invoke Godwin's
law and get it over with -- shall we enable people to voluntary enter Auschwitz?

There are two problems with Microsoft getting involved with OLPC.  The moral side is that
Microsoft has a well earned reputation which is directly at odds with the OLPC mission.  If MS
had only transgressed once or twice and immediately apologized and reversed course, they might
be trustworthy enough for an apprenticeship with OLPC, but they have a continuous, repeated,
unflappable record of embrace, extend, extinguish, even when it is not in their best long term
interest.  They are not to be trusted.  If they become part of OLPC, they will destroy it.  I
personally believe that to be their goal; they have repeatedly reliably shown their interest
in destroying the competition.  OLPC ignores that reputation at its peril.

The other side of this is the practical problem of keeping the XO small, cheap, and easy to
use.  Adding capability to the XO merely to enable Windows to run on it for no benefit adds to
the cost, power requirement, and fragility of it.  That also is at odds with the OLPC mission.
Furthermore, Microsoft has repeatedly (see the moral side above) shown more interest in
feature lockin than making their products easy to use.  The free source software movement
makes that kind of lockin almost impossible.

Microsoft's corporate history is all at odds with OLPC.  You may as well invite the foxes to a
chicken barbeque; no point wasting time and effort pretending they are being hired to guard
the coop.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 4:50 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link]

Run out of meds again, Nige?

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 13:27 UTC (Thu) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

> Your "freedom" is all about removing choices that purchasers around 
> the world want to make, whether it be Windows on the XO or XP on the Eee.

I have seen this accusation several times here, but I don't see it in Stallman's article or in
the comments you are replying to.

I agree that it is wrong to try and stop MS (or Apple or whoever) from running their OS on the
XO.  It's not only anti-freedom, it's a waste of time.  But I don't see many (and certainly
not Stallman who you seem to be aiming your "freetard" insult at) saying this.

They are saying that we should convince the OLPC project to continue basing their efforts on
Linux.  There is nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

jake

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 16:58 UTC (Thu) by itachi0 (guest, #32049) [Link]

Clearly, the one promoting the "freetard meme" is none other than yourself. You've used the
term 5 times so far, and are obviously opposed to anyone promoting the ideology of free
software, implicitly labeling them as "freetards". It really does nothing to advance your
argument.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 18:07 UTC (Thu) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

Aren't you the least bit concerned that the term "freetards" is entering mainstream usage when
describing hypocritical FLOSS evangelists? (For example, it's OK for Linux to compete with
Microsoft, but not for Microsoft to compete with Linux)

Regardless of how many times I've used the term myself in these comments, the media has
already picked up the term and identified what it means and the issues surrounding it. 

And it gives them a handy stick to beat us with.

"Hippies" and "communists" are outdated terms - "freetard" is going to run and run, not just
in the FLOSS area, but also in areas such as P2P. Already people are tying the issues
surrounding illegal P2P use with FLOSS as it's usually the same subset of people making the
loudest noises about both.

And asking questions such as "Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?" sparks off implications which
the media can pick up and run with.

Seriously, if you want the "freetard" term and stereotype to die out, then don't say things
that strengthen it.

OLPC doesn't need "rescuing" from anything but poor management. What OS it runs is irrelevant
if it does everything that it's intended to be used for - and it's the organisations that are
purchasing it in the hundreds of thousands that decide that.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 2, 2008 2:52 UTC (Fri) by itachi0 (guest, #32049) [Link]

No, I'm not at all concerned that the term is supposedly entering the mainstream. I really
couldn't care less what the "mainstream" thinks about the software I use/develop. Other people
are free to use whatever crap closed-source software they want. 

You seem overly concerned with the "image" of free software. As far as I am concerned, as long
as I have access to well-written software that does what I need it to and that I can inspect,
modify and redistribute, I don't care what people who disagree with my views choose to label
me. Nor will I waste my time deriding them with stupid labels for their choice. They're as
free to make their choice as I am to make mine. That won't stop me from advocating free
software over proprietary software when I get the chance. 

RMS will always advocate free software. This is not news, and it will not change. Frankly I
find it nice that someone is there to counter the ridiculous amount of marketing propaganda
put forth by commercial software interests, even if he does get a bit fanatical about it.
Hardly different than calling the GPL a "virus" though. 

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 2, 2008 10:49 UTC (Fri) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Aren't you the least bit concerned that the term "freetards" is entering mainstream usage when describing hypocritical FLOSS evangelists? [...] Regardless of how many times I've used the term myself in these comments, the media has already picked up the term and identified what it means and the issues surrounding it.

The main user of "freetard" appears to be Andrew Orlowski of The Register, who seems to use it as a blanket term to cover anyone from open source developers through digital rights activists and all the way to peer-to-peer file-sharers, although I note that since being flamed by someone coining the term "paytard" he has presumably had to refine his usage of the term somewhat. You would appear to be the other main user of the term, given the number of times you've dropped it into this discussion.

I doubt that the media, even beyond writers at The Register, have any precise definition of the term, other than it having something to do with "free" (mostly as in "free of charge") and it being an easy way to infuriate people, drive people to their site, increase page views, and so on. I have more respect for the guy who thought up "paytard", but then the antagonists of "Big Content" always have been more effective in delivering a coherent message to the masses.

Hardly hypocritical

Posted May 3, 2008 11:26 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Stallman undoubtedly has many flaws, but being "hypocritical" is hardly one of them. If there is someone who is uncompromising with his ethical views then he is the guy. The fact that you don't like some of his conclusions (while, I presume, sharing at least some of his principles) doesn't mean that they are somehow dishonest, as your choice of words suggests.

It is OK for Windows to compete with Linux when and where it makes sense. "Competition" in humanitarian projects is only good when it supports the humanitarian causes behind those projects; in this case one of the main goals was to deliver open platforms for learning, which Windows is not, no matter how much money it donates. Talk about hypocrites!

In other areas the call to competition is flawed for other reasons. On the desktop competition should be fine as long as it is fair, but competition with a convicted monopolist cannot be trusted to remain fair for long. Besides, I don't really think Microsoft needs your help, unless you are on their payroll.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 4, 2008 19:19 UTC (Sun) by dvdeug (subscriber, #10998) [Link]

Entering mainstream usage? I fail to see any chance that the New York Times is going to be
using such a word as "freetard". In fact, I'm rather unconcerned that any serious author
writing in any semi-formal medium will use the word "freetard", as it reeks of name calling,
instead of sophistication and intelligent debate.

Furthermore, if you push a idea, something that could change the world, there will be those
who make up names about you. There's no point in fighting it, and no actions on your part,
short of the most craven and worthless, will stop it. Why waste time worrying about that level
of critics?

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 3, 2008 7:05 UTC (Sat) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

The OLPC is not a 'general purpose computer' by design or intent - it is a key part of a
bottom-up education project.  Of course you can install other OSs, but there's no particular
reason why the OLPC team should support this, other than the much-discussed preference of some
government bureaucrats for Windows for whatever reason.

The eee is a different situation - it's a commercial device and I'm fine with Asus shipping
versions with both Linux or Windows.  I suspect the Linux version will continue to outsell the
Windows version as long as there is a level playing field, since the eee Linux version is
quite well configured for the eee, and generally Linux can work on smaller screens, doesn't
demand writable swap/paging file (which is slow and eventually wears out the flash), etc.

Freedom of choice

Posted May 3, 2008 11:45 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Whatever Microsoft says in their astroturfing campaigns, "choice" is not "freedom".

"Choice" is going to the store, studying the selection and picking up the product you prefer. "Freedom" is about opening up the endless possibilities offered to you.

It is very convenient to restrict the discussion to "Windows vs Linux", but freedom is much more than that. On a free system you can install not only whatever distribution of GNU/Linux you prefer (or even without the "GNU/"), not even your own selection of packages, and not restricted to the versions offered on the net. You can install a host of alternative operating systems such as the *BSD family, Minix, and a few more. You can also create your own distribution, compile the software with the options you prefer or even write your own kernel.

Microsoft doesn't offer you this freedom, mainly because they can't. That is why they talk about "choice", which is appropriate for consumers. What Stallman is saying is that an open education project should aim for "freedom", which is an entirely different beast. Even if people call him names because of that.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 5:07 UTC (Thu) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link]

"Promoting an agenda" is right up there with "political" as an empty term of opprobrium used to dismiss without analysis, and in fact to belittle the entire possibility of basing policy on analytical inquiry.

May I quote you on this? This needs spreading.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 14:37 UTC (Thu) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link]

Of course you may.  

Don Barry,
Cornell Astronomy

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 16:07 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

Strange - I thought it was all about helping the kids and not about promoting anyone's agenda.

I think that having access to the whole software stack (or thereabouts) is definitely about helping the kids and their educators, certainly if you consider the resulting freedom to maintain and improve the offering (or to find someone who can do so without arbitrary hindrance). In contrast, I don't think you can say the same about Microsoft involvement: they will always be wanting to leverage their investment, and I think most people have seen how they manage to do that.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 16:25 UTC (Wed) by uravanbob (subscriber, #4050) [Link]

And what part of helping kids achieve and maintain freedom is not part of helping kids?
Everyone has an agenda - "is the agenda hidden?" is a relevant question.  

While not all the kids are going to want to become programmers - having the software based on
a free platform allows anyone to become involved at whatever level they feel ... insert well
worn list of OSS virtues here.

Currently, OLPC's development problems seem to be more a function of the high degree of
research, on-going design and limited manpower vs the implementation issues of libraries and
underlying OS - although I would wager that the people actually implementing would be loathe
to attempt it using XP even if the XO supported that POS (and yes I'm biased - or have 30years
of experience, your choice).


Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 2, 2008 6:09 UTC (Fri) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link]

|Everyone has an agenda - "is the agenda hidden?" is a relevant question.  

Indeed. But politics has such a bad rap, that you frequently see nonsense such as this: As if
having an agenda AT ALL is somewhat bad, negative or wrong. 

We sure as HELL have an agenda.

Up there with "political". What we do is CERTAINLY political, whether intended as such or not.



Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 16:51 UTC (Wed) by im14u2c (subscriber, #5246) [Link]

Your comment would be more appropriate if this were, say, Steve Jobs arguing for OS X to
replace Windows.  There the two agendas would be roughly equivalent:  Building a larger user
base to cement their respective proprietary OSes in the marketplace.  More users == more
network effects == more lock-in.  Like any good pusher, they'll make sure your first hit's
free in the hopes of a paying customer for life.

RMS certainly has an agenda, but it's rather different in character.  He too wants to expand a
user base, with its attendant network effects and resulting self reinforcement.  The
difference?  Rather than leading large numbers of people toward lock-in and a future
dependence on software and features dictated by the whims of a few companies, he'd rather lead
people toward an independent future, where the software and platform are controlled and
evolved by the very people who use it.

The more people who embrace free software, the easier it gets.  Remember when the web was
dominated by websites that only functioned properly on Internet Explorer?  Since the rise of
the next wave of alternate browsers such as Mozilla and Firefox, I haven't seen such a site in
a while.  This wouldn't have happened unless there were enough people demanding it.


Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 16:22 UTC (Wed) by pinky0x51 (guest, #40742) [Link]

I agree with Stallman about the future of the OLPC and hope it will continue to be a free software platform.

But now to the funny part of this articel:

"[..] during a week of preparing, under a deadline, to migrate personally to an XO. [..] I am typing these words on the XO.

I find it quite funny that RMS now uses the OLPC as his main computer/notebook.

The OLPC looks that much like a toy that i can't refrain from laughing when imagine RMS in front of a OLPC with a black screen and only emacs is running.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 16:59 UTC (Wed) by RobHu (guest, #51832) [Link]

I just got back from a talk by Stallman (in Cambridge UK on copyright and sharing).

I didn't glance at the screen to see whether he did just have emacs running, but he doesn't
use the 
OLPC keyboard - he has a USB keyboard he plugs in to it. It wasn't a full sized keyboard - it
was 
maybe 20-30% wider than the OLPC (but fitted well on top of the keyboard [which I assume is 
disabled]). It looked like some kind of funky keyboard, like one with a different key layout
or 
something (it had no numeric pad).

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 19:35 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

It is probably based on the older LISP keyboards. The MIT hackers prefered a different layout
with META and other keys on it in particular places.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted Apr 30, 2008 20:55 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

In stories I've read about RMS in the past it's apparent that he has chfronic RSI or RSI-like
problems with his hands and his wrists.  He has stated that  having a comfortable keyboard has
helped tremendously.. that typically the keyboards that he used in the past were much to stiff
for him. 

So doubtlessly he finds the OLPC keyboard to be difficult to use as well. 

Happy Hacking keyboard

Posted Apr 30, 2008 22:07 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Last I saw him he was using a Happy Hacking Keyboard. It has a good but soft feel (Model M freaks won't like it).

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 1:32 UTC (Thu) by csawtell (subscriber, #986) [Link]

If OLPC want to use Windows as a lever to open the doors of the Ministries of Education, that's fine by me, but I hope that said Ministries realize that as soon as Windows is made available to school pupils, the commercial games will follow as surely as night follows day. These resulting distractions cause so much wasted time that they completely negate all educational effects the machines might have had. IMNSHO the OLPC folks made a fundamental and absolute huge mistake basing the machine on the Intel x86 architecture.

Hopefully OLPC, or the free software 'community', will find the time and fortitude to produce memory sticks to allow the students, and their teachers, to re-image the machines to different O/Ss.

If OLPC really want to use commercial software, they would be well advised to attempt to re-activeate Steve Jobs offer of a port of MacOS-X.

BTW, in practice, the main problem with Windows, is that it costs about three times as much to keep it running in a school setting as it does a UNIX based machine. It was this fact that caused my son's school to ban Windows from the campus outright, and use MacOS-X exclusively.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 3:55 UTC (Thu) by dps (subscriber, #5725) [Link]

I *thought* the OLPC people were about education and not RMS's (or microsoft's) agenda. The
question should be what does windows offer in terms of education. Given the market there is
little scope for fee gouging and anybody offering only that is unlikely to get far IMHO.

IT these days involves very little programming, so for most purposes the OS does not matter
much. VB might actually be useful even if most of us would never dream of using it.

The same theory works for VB, C, C++, perl and python. A functional programming language like
ML or LISP, which has neither variables nor control flow, is different but again which one you
choose does not matter.

In UK CS departments, which is what I know, microsoft has a mountain to climb. There is a lot
of investment in Solaris on both SPARC and x86. Running x86 solaris is obvious when you have a
lot of solaris/SPARC boxen.

There is also the problem that cray systems run unicos max, most large clusters run linux and
so forth. This means that anybody targeting heavy iron usually wants a un*x environment and
not windows.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 9:56 UTC (Thu) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

Completely agree.

Purchasers have different tastes and requirements. And whilst the Microsoft options are less
appealing to the alternatives, *it should still be offered as a choice* for as long as some
people choose it.

Honestly, how long have we been fighting for Linux to have an equal footing to Microsoft when
it comes to pre-installed operating systems? 

Now that we're close to achieving that, it makes no sense to me that we're trying to lock
Microsoft out of various opportunities when we should be competing on our own merits. By
attempting to block Microsoft rather than compete fairly with it, not only are we feeding the
"freetard" meme, but also strengthening the widely-publicised "Freetard Football" article Fake
Steve Jobs wrote a while back. Google it, read it, and realise how close to reality it is. 

Now that the "freetard" meme is spreading not just through the IT press but also into the
mainstream, FLOSS's reputation is being tarnished once more - and this time by our own people.

Of course, we could just do nothing. Or shoot the messenger. Or accuse the messenger of being
a shill. Or on drugs. Anything which won't improve matters one bit.

Our position will be strengthened when we can honestly say "Linux is being offered alongside
Microsoft, *and most people chose Linux*". It has a lot more credibility than saying Linux won
by default because Microsoft wasn't allowed to compete with it.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 13:10 UTC (Thu) by pinky0x51 (guest, #40742) [Link]

i have to disagree.

I can't hear this "it is all about choice"-argument. In many case that's just an excuse for
people who don't want to think about arguments and than take a position.

We don't need choice for everything. We don't need at least one country with dictatorship so
that people has the "choice" to live in an dictatorship or not. We don't need at least one
country which allows slavery so that people has the "choice" to be a slave or not. We don't
need to abandon environment protection so that people has the "choice" to pollute their
environment or not. etc.

And so we don't need the "choice" of non-free software if we want enable the children to learn
as much as they want, to share with their friend and to become able to create their own IT
industrie and move their country forward. If we want to give them everything they need to move
themselves forward and not to become dependend from software and companys of the "1th world"
than we have to give them free software.

Let them choose between KDE, GNOME, Xfce,... let them choose between GNU/Linux, OpenBSD,
FreeBSD,... let them choose between emacs, vim,... let them choose between different hardware.
But they don't need the choice to use non-free software which means that they can no longer
learn as much as they want, they can no longer share with their friends and they can not
create their own IT industrie based on the software they use.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 13:23 UTC (Thu) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

Mentioning non-free software in the same breath as dictatorships, slavery and pollution isn't
exactly a good counter to the rise of the "freetard" meme.

Get some perspective.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 13:38 UTC (Thu) by pinky0x51 (guest, #40742) [Link]

i have _not_ compare dictatorships, slavery and pollution with non free software.

Dictatorships, slavery and pollution where just some random examples which has nothing to do
with non-free sofware but illustrate that "choise" is not always the most important value.

Later on i described why i think that "choice" of non-free software is not a important/good
value for this kind of project.

So it would be good if you would focus on the real arguments and don't try to put me into
something i don't have said.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 16:30 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

> So it would be good if you would focus on the real arguments and don't try to put me into
something i don't have said.

No shit. People need to get off of this conservative-talkshow-host style of debate. (or on the
flip side: "ignorant leftist college kid" style of debate.. same tactics, different politics)

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 20:30 UTC (Thu) by shapr (subscriber, #9077) [Link]

Whatever the result of the argument over choice, if any non-Linux platform is to be an option for the OLPC, they'll need developers.

This arstechnica article is worth reading.

Personally, I wish OLPC would start selling the XOs wholesale, I think that would help with funding and put more XOs in the hands of the general public.

Stallman: Can we rescue OLPC from Windows?

Posted May 1, 2008 22:53 UTC (Thu) by aegl (subscriber, #37581) [Link]

When it comes to helping children to learn, the OS is (or should be) completely irrelevent.
It is the applications that matter (and the OLPC project appears to have given plenty of
thought to how to provide a set of applications that will be useful).

<begin rant>
My daughter (sixth grade) was the victim of poor applications earlier this week. She'd spent a
while typing data into an "Outline Generator" that she had been directed to use by her teacher
... all of her data was lost by this "application" which seems to consist only of a series of
HTML input forms which at best simply reformat the entered data into a multi-level list. There
is no way to save the work and continue later. The "Save" link on the page just points to some
instructions on how to save the output list as a text file and then read that into Microsoft
Word.

Way too much time (and money) is spent on getting computers into schools, and far too little
time is spent on how they will be used there to improve the education provided to the
students.
<end rant>

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