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A partial rebuttal

A partial rebuttal

Posted Apr 24, 2008 16:53 UTC (Thu) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861)
In reply to: A partial rebuttal by tialaramex
Parent article: The Grumpy Editor encounters the Hardy Heron

If the network goes down in most enterprise environments, your desktop is a paperweight and
there's not much that NM, or anything else, can do about it.  DNS lookups will fail.  NFS
(where your home directory, your cross-compiler environment, many basic shared utilities to do
your job, your IDE or CAD or whatever software, etc. is stored) won't work.  You can't access
your email.  You can't access your calendar.  You can't work on documents which are all
provided from a central server.  You can't check bugs, which are all stored on a central
server.  Heck, sometimes you can't even get your phone working since it's using VOIP.

Exactly what magic do you propose NM will perform, that will allow a system in a heavily
networked environment to be more productive without a network than in the past?  I don't get
it.  Even without NM, back "in the day", if the network went down I could still use my local
files etc. just as before.

I definitely agree that features like Upstart are great.  The problem is, we do not HAVE
Upstart, not really.  Even after what, 2 or 3 Ubuntu releases now where it's been available,
hardly anything uses it, and certainly no network services use it.

DBUS may have been designed to be cross-platform but the fact is that it is not DEPLOYED
cross-platform.  That means for all practical purposes any change to any network service (nis,
ldap, autofs, apache, mail clients, etc. etc.) that is made for this is a special case JUST
for Linux.

As for allowing local accounts to log in, that's already the way it works: nsswitch.conf
specifies that local files are searched before NIS etc.  This is a solved problem that works
fine: we don't need NM for this.

I also don't understand your point about DHCP and leases.  My system has always had a dhclient
running and it always gets new leases when my current lease expires.  However, like any
well-administered DHCP server, that lease always contains the same IP address, because DHCP
servers keep track of which leases they hand out to which MAC addresses, and re-use them
wherever possible.  Only if my system was down for weeks and there was address pressure would
the server hand out my IP to a different host; then when my system came back up it would get
another address and all would be well.  This has worked for many years before NM came along.

There is really only one convincing use case for NM: when you need to change your network
configuration while your system is up and running.  For any system that has the same network
from bootup to shutdown (and that INCLUDES just about every DHCP environment), NM is not
needed.

Again I want to stress, I don't object to NM just because I personally don't need it, or
because I don't like new things.  I object to it because it actively BREAKS simple, basic
features that have worked just fine for years and years.  Whether that's because of NM itself,
or because it's been poorly/improperly integrated with Ubuntu and Fedora, I don't have a real
opinion about.  Whatever the reason, NM is not ready to be deployed in environments like
Ubuntu LTS.


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A partial rebuttal

Posted Apr 25, 2008 2:35 UTC (Fri) by nlucas (subscriber, #33793) [Link]

+1

I discovered that if you "apt-get remove network-manager" then suddenly the good old debian
way of network configuration starts working again, meaning you get the full power over your
network as in the old times.

I still use it on laptops, though.

A partial rebuttal

Posted Apr 25, 2008 3:53 UTC (Fri) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link]

If the network goes down in most enterprise environments, your desktop is a paperweight and there's not much that NM, or anything else, can do about it.

That used to be true. These days enterprises have two parallel networks -- wired and wireless. With hosts capable of dynamically selecting interfaces those two last-mile links can usefully provide resilience when a cabinet switch dies. These cabinet switches are the network component that is the currently the most difficult to make redundant.

A partial rebuttal

Posted Apr 28, 2008 18:22 UTC (Mon) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link]

While in theory that might be true, in practice I've never seen it.  Sure, there are two
networks (wired and wireless); that's very common.  But, for whatever reason I've never seen
an environment set up so it made sense to switch back and forth dynamically.  First, the
wireless network is always much more secure, which means harder to use.  Often you need to use
a VPN to get into the secure parts of the network via wireless, for example.

Second, so far nowhere that I have worked has provided a wireless NIC on desktop systems.  I
realize these are getting cheaper all the time but on an enterprise deployment of 1000's or
even 100's of systems, that extra cost adds up.  And, remember that hardware depreciation
means that most developers get systems no more often than every three years (many places you
only get a hardware refresh every five years, unless there's some business case).

There are other difficulties I can imagine: for example, if your wired LAN goes down you don't
want a massive simultaneous switching of 100's of desktop systems over to the wireless LAN,
trying to use that.  Or, how do you get everyone switched back over once the wired LAN is
working?

It may be that this makes sense in SOHO-type deployments but I have a hard time seeing how it
would be practical for any reasonably-sized facility.  Just MHO.

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