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Do they actually not like their users?Do they actually not like their users?Posted Apr 23, 2008 22:09 UTC (Wed) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648)In reply to: Do the actually not like their users? by SEJeff Parent article: The Grumpy Editor encounters the Hardy Heron
That means if you aren't running nautilus or tell nautilus to no[t] manage backgrounds in gnome then you can't change the wallpaper. So, to draw an analogy, that's like having to go to the stove in the kitchen to change the channel on the television in the living room. Sorry for being blunt, but I hope that my perspective on this interface may tell others more closely related to GNOME desktop development why it seems like A Bad Idea™. I do wish to thank our editor for his review, and also for taking the time out of his schedule to participate in the discussion.
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Do they actually not like their users? Posted Apr 23, 2008 23:33 UTC (Wed) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link] I'd actually say it's more akin to turning on your TV so you can change the time on your VCR. That's not the primary use of either piece of equipment, but it reuses the existing relationship among the pieces to great effect. In the case of Nautilus, since it's expected to be there as part of the overall GNOME environment and needs to handle root-window events anyway, having it take over the root window image doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. (That's roughly how Windows does it--it's the Explorer shell that handles it, IIRC.) Just as in my analogy, since a VCR pretty much has to have a TV attached so you can watch a tape, so reusing the TV for on-screen menu display isn't too much of a stretch. Are there VCRs that let you change the time w/out a TV? Of course! But that doesn't make the ones that require a TV for that purpose wrong. It just makes them different. Now as for the silent failure to change the background? That sounds a bug. That level of failure shouldn't be silent. Either a error/warning dialog should come up, or the tab should be greyed out when Nautilus isn't running. Also, disabling Nautilus should give a warning that some functionality will be disabled.
Do they actually not like their users? Posted Apr 24, 2008 2:28 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] > I'd actually say it's more akin to turning on your TV so you can change the time on your VCR. That's not the primary use of either piece of equipment, but it reuses the existing relationship among the pieces to great effect. It's also a huge waste of power and time for what should be a trivial job and one for which UI elements already exist; the only people who benefit from it are the people who are doing the Wrong Thing in the first place (in that case, leaving their TV on all the time). And it's not an optional job (at least not anywhere that has DST or power outages). Moreover, if I saw that, I'd assume the rest of the UI made me work proportionally harder, and I'd go and buy something else. ...So yeah, actually not a bad analogy.
Do they actually not like their users? Posted Apr 24, 2008 3:20 UTC (Thu) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link] Hmmm... I don't leave my TV on all the time, and yet, I benefit from OSD to program my time on my VCR. I only need to do it twice a year and it only takes a minute or two. Using menus on a screen that are readable and intuitive compared to the tiny buttons and limited feedback pre-OSD VCRs gave me years ago is a UI benefit. You could compare this to right clicking the background vs. having to edit an .xsession file and adding an xsetroot command in the right place pointing to a graphics file of the right format.
Do they actually not like their users? Posted Apr 26, 2008 9:46 UTC (Sat) by hamish (✭ supporter ✭, #6282) [Link] Heh, anticipating this problem, the manufacturers of my VCR built a 5cm QVGA LCD screen into it - So I get the full UI without turning on my TV
VCR setup Posted Apr 24, 2008 9:29 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] It's an optional job if you bought a modern VCR (not that those really exist any more since they're obsolete) and live in a country with decent TV. The VCR will normally auto-tune during setup, thus finding channels with data services, the data services nearly always carry a clock. It can watch the suspect clock for a while, and if it does seem to be a clock, set the time. e.g. 12:01:01 progressing to 12:01:02 suggests a clock, whereas earl; 806 progressing to n36 - ok does not :) And yes, I've definitely owned VCRs able to do this, and yes, they used an on-screen display for their setup thus obliging you, the VCR owner to also have and use a television. No complaints here. I've also used a VCR (my parents) with a 14 day 20 item, semi-repeating programmable timer and no on-screen display and let me just say, you are stone cold crazy if you think that's better. I'd rather buy a new VCR for someone than help them use one of those horrible LCD panel remote controls to try to set up or program the VCR.
VCR setup Posted Apr 24, 2008 13:46 UTC (Thu) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link] And yes, I've definitely owned VCRs able to do this, and yes, they used an on-screen display for their setup thus obliging you, the VCR owner to also have and use a television. No complaints here. I've also used a VCR (my parents) with a 14 day 20 item, semi-repeating programmable timer and no on-screen display and let me just say, you are stone cold crazy if you think that's better. I'd rather buy a new VCR for someone than help them use one of those horrible LCD panel remote controls to try to set up or program the VCR. That's exactly where I'm coming from. :-) And sure, VCRs are by and large obsolete these days, but they're useful as a ready example since nearly everyone's experienced them by now and they're meant to be used by average consumers, not trained experts. And everyone I think knows a family member or relative with "blinking 12:00" syndrome, especially with those older, arcane VCRs. My stepmom's parents used to tape over the clock with black electrical tape back in the 80s, indicating the depth of failure the old, clunky interfaces exhibited.
VCR setup Posted Apr 25, 2008 1:25 UTC (Fri) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] I did own such a VCR, and yes, it blinked 12:00 most of the time. I just had no use for the clock in it (until I programmed it to record at a time I had to be away).
VCR setup Posted Apr 24, 2008 14:05 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] > I've also used a VCR (my parents) with a 14 day 20 item, semi-repeating programmable timer and no on-screen display and let me just say, you are stone cold crazy if you think that's better. Way to move the goalposts. I was talking about a VCR that required you to *set the clock* via a TV. I wasn't talking about a VCR that only permitted you to program it in-depth from the front panel (although arguably "start recording in 2 hours, stop an hour after that" should be as easy to do as setting the time). On the other hand, perhaps you've provided us with a perfect illustration of the binary thought patterns which lead to monstrosities like that originally complained about.
VCR setup Posted Apr 24, 2008 18:18 UTC (Thu) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link] I really don't have a problem setting the time using the TV. I'd reckon the vast majority of VCRs still in service are connected to TVs, and that's my point. VCR manufacturers can safely assume that a TV will be connected to the VCR, and so it can serve as a display when necessary. Ignoring the 14-day timer aspect, it's still easier to set the time with OSD than it is with tiny buttons and minimal feedback on the VCR itself.
VCR setup Posted Apr 25, 2008 2:44 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] > I'd reckon the vast majority of VCRs still in service are connected to TVs ...and are those TVs always turned on and ready to go?
VCR setup Posted Apr 25, 2008 2:51 UTC (Fri) by jzbiciak (✭ supporter ✭, #5246) [Link] Why does it matter? Is my monitor always turned on with my mouse hovering over the wallpaper with my finger on the mouse just waiting to right click?
VCR setup Posted Apr 25, 2008 3:19 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] > Why does it matter? Oxygen thief. :P
I forgot one part - the stove would have to be powered on Posted Apr 24, 2008 3:28 UTC (Thu) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link] So, to draw an analogy, that's like having to go to the stove in the kitchen to change the channel on the television in the living room. Furthermore, with respect to our editor's experience, the stove would have to be powered on to change the TV channel. Okay, I'll lay off now. But, I would like to make a general observation about GNOME v. KDE: A friend and fellow grad student with whom I share an office has Ubuntu 7.10 installed on his ThinkPad T61. I'm running Slackware 12 and KDE on a second-hand Dell Latitude C610. His experience using computers prior to Linux was entirely on Macs, whereas my pre-Linux desktop PC experience was all Windows. He prefers GNOME, I prefer KDE. Again, this is merely an observation. Not that I couldn't be persuaded to learn/use GNOME sometime. But before that happens, I'd certainly appreciate knowing that tasks such as changing the desktop wallpaper aren't obfuscated to oblivion.
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