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GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Over at LinuxPlanet, Bruce Byfield has a thoughtful piece about Linux supporters having a negative identity, defined by their opposition to Microsoft. It is worth a read even though it is annoyingly paginated into five pieces. "Think about it: Starting from nothing, the free software community has achieved the impossible, confounding all sorts of expectations. In doing so, it has not only changed the way that business is done, but empowered millions, combining technological and social change in a way that has never been seen before. These accomplishments, I suggest, are long overdue for acknowledgment and celebration. We hear too much about hate, and not nearly enough about pride."
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GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 7, 2008 18:53 UTC (Mon) by danielhedblom (subscriber, #47307) [Link]

I dont think its hate. Nobody can be oblivious to the fact that Microsoft is doing pretty much
anything it can to kill Linux. Do you like someone who wants you gone is the question here. To
not like or care about something does not equal hate.

The hate thing is mostly something MS and their supporters use to diminish any legit
complaints about Microsoft or their products. 

There are plenty of people solely using Microsofts products that says much more hard words
about them than any OSS advocate i have ever heard. 



GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 7, 2008 19:18 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

I think the portrayal of Linux supporters as being only defined by their opposition to
Microsoft is true only for those Linux supporters that are only defined by their opposition to
Microsoft.  :)  There is such a group.  But they are only a subset, albeit unfortunately a
vocal one.  I have found that those who have a history of contributing positively to the free
software ecosystem tend to just ignore Microsoft as much as possible, rather than ranting
about it...

which came first?

Posted Apr 8, 2008 4:30 UTC (Tue) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

But are they Linux supporters who post on message boards about hating MSFT, or MSFT haters on
message boards who happened to latch onto Linux?  Just getting someone on your side in an
online argument doesn't mean that you have any meaningful connection with the person.  In the
user group scene I have seen people arriving motivated by curiosity, by wanting to get a
certain project done, and by dislike for MSFT -- the first two are strong enough to get the
person over the transition to an unfamiliar OS, and the last one isn't.   

In the late 1990s I saw a mental health article that pointed out MSFT and then-CEO Bill Gates
had passed "the government" and "aliens" as a subject of paranoid delusions -- mental health
practicioners were reporting that patients told more stories of MSFT spying on them,
implanting chips in their heads, etc. than the previous top two.  I don't have the link,
though -- anyone remember this?

which came first?

Posted Apr 8, 2008 6:18 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

No, but I'm sure Google is making its way up there now. :)

which came first?

Posted Apr 8, 2008 15:30 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

As it well should... they already have your mail, your videos, your internet queries, and they want all of your traffic. MS is jealous with reason.

By the way, have you realized that people able to configure a mail client (not even a server) are the 21th century equivalent of those capable of building their own car in the 1920s? OK, I'm exagerating, but not that much. In any case, preconfigured internet services are now a commodity for most people; and that entails trusting your provider in ways previously unthinkable. I know that for me Google searches follow my thought processes closer than an EEG.

which came first?

Posted Apr 8, 2008 7:39 UTC (Tue) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

You are forgetting the third possibility: advocates.  It doesn't matter
_what_ is advocated - no more than for any other tosser.  S/h/it might
change the poster when it's sufficiently covered with, er, drying evidence
of affection and the next one might even have a different picture on it.
If you hold your nose and look into old usenet archives, you'll see any
number of those migrating from one "community" to another - Amiga to OS/2 to
MacOS to BeOS to whatnot, with the same kind of rethorics and the same
whatever it is that replaces mind in fanboys.  VMS ones too, if you go a bit
earlier.  They migrate; it had been rather amusing in a sick kind of way
to watch exhalted Linux advocates go and pester FreeBSD folks in a more
embarrassing capacity - that of equally exhalted FreeBSD advocates.  BTW,
they seem to have a territorial behaviour of sorts; ones who discover the
new territory appear to emit satisfied noises in direction of their slower
brethren.  Ironically, it resembles earlier behaviour of locals, who used
to enjoy relatively idiot-free environment and to taunt the previous victims
of advocates' attention by associating those with the flocks of turd-flinging
pests.

The choice of enemy also can change.  FWIW, it looks like the real attraction
for persons in question is a safe and heroic fantasy - that of bravely
fighting the terrible enemy of humanity and feeling themselves comfortably
exempt from any kind of work that might require intellectual efforts.
IOW, Luke Skywalker wannabes.  It's not about being anti-MS or pro-Linux, etc.
What really counts is seeing a setup that might match their template.

I'm not a prude and I certainly do not deny that they are entitled to their
kinks of choice, but there's a difference between being hostile to people
fond of buggering dead chipmunks and being annoyed by vigorous demonstrations
of the same in public places...

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 7, 2008 20:01 UTC (Mon) by foo (guest, #1117) [Link]

As is often the case, the printable view is not annoyingly paginated:

  http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/print/6473/

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 7, 2008 20:17 UTC (Mon) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link]

While I think Mr. Byfield's commentary are good words for Linux users to live by, I find it difficult to just let Microsoft continue their decade-long anti-Linux/FLOSS FUD campaign. But lately it has become increasingly easier to get others to see why I have such disdain for MS--especially every since Vista was released.

I still perceive that more anti-MS comments on blogs, posting forums, etc. are made by Mac OS fans than by Linux supporters.

Grumpy reader report: I REALLY don't appreciate how p. 2 of Byfield's article annoyingly put a large floating layer on the page, completely obscuring the "continue" link, telling me I should "...Download Adobe Flash."! That really torqued me! x-(

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 7, 2008 23:45 UTC (Mon) by sam_vee (guest, #50287) [Link]

A few comments:
The free software movement started in the 1980s.
There is no word "securer", the usage should be "more secure".
These are the arguments of a marketing person - focus on the positive and ignore the negative.
Norman Vincent "banana" Peale in another guise.
Far better to acknowledge reality - the ugliness brought to the table by Microsoft and its
boorish behaviour and the nicer side portrayed by free software. Byfield is always a
contrarian and just aims for traffic by doing this - his pagination is another good
illustration of the reason he writes.

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 8, 2008 2:22 UTC (Tue) by nanday (guest, #51465) [Link]

Speaking of being a contrarian:

1. The Free Software Foundation started in the 1980s, but it hardly justified the name of
"movement" until the 1990s. I wrote exactly what I meant to say.

2. Adding "er" to a word is the common comparative in English. "Securer" is correct according
to the descriptive principles of grammar that I tend to follow.

3. Considering my own views on people like Peale
(http://brucebyfield.wordpress.com/2007/06/26/winning-frie...),
I find the comment about "the arguments of a marketing person" hilarious. The comment is meant
as a putdown, I suppose, but since the view established at the start of the piece is
psychological, it's too inaccurate to be effective. Read the piece, and you'll find that I
never deny Microsoft's behavior -- I just try not to become obsessed by it.

4. If the conventional wisdom is that you must always be having a Two Minutes' Hate about
Microsoft, then call me a contrarian. But while I don't mind going against the conventional
wisdom, I never do so unless I'm expressing what I actually think. Again, I suppose you aim to
insult, but why would I aim for traffic when I get paid the same no matter what the traffic? 

Moreover, to think that I have anything to do when with the pagination, especially when the
article didn't even appear originally on LinuxPlanet is 
simply absurd. 

But, if "sam_vee" is the person I suspect, then I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised by the
ad hominem attacks at every opportunity; his own writing practices the same dubious tactics,
and this isn't the first time he's attacked me.

- Bruce Byfield ("nanday")

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 8, 2008 6:17 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I think Two Minutes' Hating about Microsoft is an excellent thing for 
people with nothing else to do to fill their poor deprived lives with.

Personally I've got better things to do (hell, beating my head on a wall 
every twenty seconds sounds like it would be more enjoyable than *that*, 
and that's by no means at the top of my things-to-do list! :) )

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 10, 2008 1:31 UTC (Thu) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]

Bruce a contrarian, coming from "sam_vee"? Hilarity!

hate and pride belong to the same source

Posted Apr 8, 2008 4:24 UTC (Tue) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link]

"[...] hate [...] pride [...]"

I think Bruce just forgot adding envy and fears into the same mixture, *and* to mix it well.

Pride comes before a fall, so does he really think it's Not Enough Fall?

(being a humble reader/developer/maintainer/manager who recognizes his envy, even if not hate,
all too often -- even if for completely weird reasons :)

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 8, 2008 6:51 UTC (Tue) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link]

It's nonsensical. There -exists- people whose main attraction to Linux is that it is NOT
Microsoft, but those are few and far between.

There's a larger population that is attracted to Linux for entirely different reasons, but
which are nevertheless annoyed at certain of Microsofts antics. Not because of hate, but
because they dislike criminal abuse of monopolies and would much prefer a level playing-field
governed by open standards.

Most Linux-users I know either use both Windows and Linux, which hardly fits the cliche of a
rabid hate-filled person, or they wish they could ignore Microsoft, which is however sometimes
hard to do. It is hard ignoring a 500 pound gorilla which does the very best it can to hurt
you in any way imaginable.

GNU/Linux: Too Much about Hate, Not Enough about Pride (LinuxPlanet)

Posted Apr 8, 2008 7:31 UTC (Tue) by crackmonkey (guest, #31592) [Link]

I think that this is largely a generational thing.  In the 1990s, when Microsoft's dominance
of not just "the market" but computing in general was far stronger than it is now, it was a
little more obvious why people targeted their ire at the company.  It was frustrating knowing
that you had something technically and ethically better than the status quo, but that you
would likely be forbidden to implement it for the same old "nobody got fired for buying IBM"
type reasons that stifled corporate computing in the 70s and 80s.

Times have changed.  Remember Paul Graham's oft-misinterpreted "Microsoft is no longer a
threat" essay.  We have fully-functional server and desktop systems with (according to Greg
K-H) better hardware support than any OS in history.  We have media darling status that hasn't
gone away in 10 years, and we're making newer and cooler things all the time.

Everyone I know who got into Free Software in the 80s or 90s kind of gets baffled now by
Microsoft-hatred.  I mean, Microsoft?  Aren't they the guys who make those keyboards?  Why
re-hash the past?  This isn't 1998, after all.

I think that it's largely young people new to the whole scene who make up the Anything But
Microsoft crowd.  It's kind of invigorating to have your Three Minutes of Hate sessions
hurling garbage at a copy of Microsoft Bob, but it really doesn't help public perception.  I
suspect that they will mellow out in time, just as we did.

When I helped organize the Windows Refund Day events in Foster City, we were simply trying to
get the message out to the newsmedia that we were trying to get a refund for something that WE
WEREN'T USING.  This was an alien concept at the time: I mean, if you're not using Windows
then what?  DOS?

How times change!

Nonsense about Hate and Pride

Posted Apr 8, 2008 9:13 UTC (Tue) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link]

I do not know of any people in the Free Software community who "hate" Microsoft. It's more an
indifferent position of dislike. However, I met Microsoft-haters in the past. They use Mac-OS.

(Sorry to call the article nonsense, maybe it's just another experience set. On a side-note,
the author confuses the USA with America, the continent.)

Hate can be good..

Posted Apr 8, 2008 15:03 UTC (Tue) by kornak (guest, #17589) [Link]

One should never underestimate the motivational power of the negative emotion commonly
referred to as "hate". I think, if well focused it can coalesce into something positive. Many
of us, if we were completely honest with ourselves, would come to realize that we came to
Linux because of our disdain of Microsoft and its third rate software which was forced upon
us. Yes, I hate Microsoft, and I am unashamed to admit it! Too much has happened to ever
change that.

Hate can be good..

Posted Apr 17, 2008 14:03 UTC (Thu) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link]

I've been asked nearly a decade ago by a customer if I hate Bill Gates - I replied "no, but his software is just too bad". Back then, it was even worse than today - Windows 98 really was crashing quite often, and Word 98 ate your documents frequently (rumors are that the dog-replacement for Clippy is the culprit). Yet, everybody assumed that "Windows is standard" and you had to eat it or die. Linux was unknown, and that you can write texts much better with LyX and LaTeX still seems to be widely unknown. People use OpenOffice.org instead - a Word clone with about the same problems as the original. If I tell people that LaTeX's base was written by Donald Knuth, even self-called programmers ask me wether they should know this person (yes, they should!).

What I hate are uninformed people. What I hate more are people who think because they don't know something it must be bad. Therefore, I hate the typical MS user, because he knows only Windows and Office, and infers that everything else must be bad, just because he doesn't know it. This hate appears to be that I hate MS, too. No, I don't care that much. They annoy me from time to time, and I wish they would just go away, but the problem is not the company, but their sheepish customer base. Once the customer base stops being sheepish (e.g. by using Firefox instead of IE), it only takes a few years and two major releases for Microsoft to develop a somewhat usable browser that follows real Standards. Microsoft is not bad just because they are a bunch of villains, they are bad because they get away with it.

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