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OOXML gets ISO approval

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 3:34 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190)
Parent article: OOXML gets ISO approval

I can't help wondering how corrupt the ISO was before Microsoft showed everyone, quite
shamelessly, how easy it was to game. How much vendor influence has been brought to bear
before, but in subtler ways?

(Of course, Microsoft have essentially destroyed the ISO's credibility now - not just in
software, but for any purpose at all. Oh well. Standards are great; everyone should have one.)


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OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 4:29 UTC (Thu) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

ISO isn't really corrupt per se, it's just a talking shop, like the UN. It exists at the whim
of its member nations. Most major industrialised nations are participating members, and thus
have a vote.

Corruption within the national standards bodies (which is what was actually documented) is an
internal matter. Some countries had robust national standards bodies which looked at this
proposal and rejected it. Some didn't. If yours didn't, you need to be making a fuss about
that. Your country's national standards body is probably responsible for your day-to-day
safety since it sets all sorts of relevant standards, so if it's corrupt and a company like
Microsoft can buy votes, that's a serious issue and you should be able to get some daylight on
it from your national press.

ISO has approved a very large number of standards, some of which are useless. If no-one adopts
this standard (note that so far Microsoft don't implement it) then it achieves nothing except
some bad press for ISO and some mixed press for Microsoft.

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 12:49 UTC (Thu) by davecb (subscriber, #1574) [Link]

Nevertheless, they do have a duty to ensure
that their procedures are followed, and
that the part of the process they "own"
not only does justice, but is seen to do 
justice.

Failing to do that legitimately raises
questions of corruption in the ISO, as
well as in the individual national 
bodies who make it up.

Think of gangrene: If your left leg has it,
then *you* have gangrene. And if you don't 
cure it or at least cut off your leg, all 
parts of your body get to die (;-))

--dave

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 9:35 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

> Of course, Microsoft have essentially destroyed the ISO's credibility now
> - not just in software, but for any purpose at all.

You are either very young or very naive. ISO's credibility has not been destroyed at all. It
has rubberstamped or even (gasp!) developed bad standards before.

Some of them have been ignored, e.g. the elder ones of us still remember the struggle between
*/IP (IETF standards) and OSI (ISO standards, most often in the form of X.*). See, ISO did
*not* standardize TCP/IP and some of its member bodies even actively worked against it. ("ISO"
seldom does anything, it's more a kind of clearing house. Its member bodies decide and act.)
An other ISO standard slowly coming are SI units, i.e., the metric system, -- the hell might
freeze over before the US starts to use it.

Other bad standards were not only accepted, but even commonly realized, that's the way
standardization works. Hell, it's not as if other standardization bodies wouldn't make bad
standards either, just look at XML schemata and SOAP from W3C.

And my accusation of naivety is because you seem to believe that anyone outside the narrow
circle of IT desktop/office technology open source proponents will give a rat about that vote.
Please note, the world is larger. ISO standardizes a mind-boggling number of interfaces, and
OOXML is just one of them. Many of them have *much* larger pricetags than an office suite. Do
you really believe that this was the first political pressure that was put on an ISO decision.
A quick search on Google provided
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3739/is_200104/ai... that is from another area
complaining about problems in IEC and approval processes. Did you know about these
standardization problems? If not, why do you expect other technical areas to know about our
problems?

And, to cut a potential argument short: I don't care much about either standard and thus don't
consider myself biased. I find neither OOo nor MS Office good products. In fact, as a member
of the LaTeX team, I have a clear (and biased) viewpoint what's the best authoring and
publishing system around. :-)

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 13:08 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link]

> You are either very young or very naive.

Quite aside from the false bifurcation, that's a *great* way to ensure I pay careful attention
to anything else you write, isn't it?

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 14:53 UTC (Thu) by amazingblair (subscriber, #2789) [Link]

Hear hear, lysse!  

We should all re-read our comments before clicking "Post" and remove anything derogatory. If
you pause a moment, you can think of a way to express your opinion in a strictly expository
manner. 

(And if you can't, then consider not posting at all. There will always be another discussion
to join.) 

-Amazing Blair

P.S.  Now to go figure out what a "false bifurcation" is, and if my flu shot will protect me. 

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 15:10 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Yes!  Let's ban fun discourse on the off chance that it should offend the sensitive.  All LWN
posts should heretofore attempt to resemble RFCs and ISO documents.

(The original statement sounded light hearted enough to me, especially since it was surrounded
by informative content that took the original poster quite seriously...  If it had been aimed
at me, I don't think I would have taken offense...  even if I thought myself particularly
young and naive!)

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 16:42 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link]

Well, it has been generally observed that I'm unusually sensitive.

OOXML gets ISO approval

Posted Apr 3, 2008 16:46 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link]

However (and sorry to reply to myself) I should point out that I never advocated banning
anything, nor did I say anything about general principles. I responded to an individual
instance which was directed at me, to point out that it *had* caused *actual* (not potential)
offence - is anyone seriously going to suggest that I shouldn't have the right to do that, or
that doing so is tantamount to calling for a ban on potentially-offensive responses?

Metric system (was OOXML gets ISO approval)

Posted Apr 3, 2008 14:55 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

An other ISO standard slowly coming are SI units, i.e., the metric system, -- the hell might freeze over before the US starts to use it.

Well, that's just stupidity on the part of the US. Every other industrialized country has standardized on SI. In fact, are there even any other countries that have not standardized on SI?

I even recall hearing that the US is "officially" metric. It's about time American citizens were dragged into the 19th century and forced to learn about kilograms, metres and litres! :-)

Metric system (was OOXML gets ISO approval)

Posted Apr 3, 2008 15:11 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Being from Germany, I can fully sympathesize with your view.

But then, I have been in many international projects where we had to cater for the US folks
who insist on using inches, feets, and other obscure stuff in their technical specs.
mm/dd/yyyy, anyone? What's the logic behind that order?

Mind you, I don't care if they use it in private life or in local business, we also use
"dozen" or "pound" at our local store. (Though our pound is different than that from the UK
and from the US. :-) I'm also willing to get myself aquianted with that strange Fahrenheit
notion when I'm on the road privately. That's a cultural matter, and then I'm a visitor; I
don't run around with short trousers in islamic countries either.

But in documents of international projects, that's completely different. Here it is a pet
peeve of mine, due to several severe problems that I have experienced first-hand. Metric units
should be a must here (and also date notation in form of YYYY-MM-DD), but try to convince my
fellow US project partners of that. No chance, and it just brings out the label `not
constructive'. :-(

Anyhow, anough rambling, back to work. :-)

Metric system (was OOXML gets ISO approval)

Posted Apr 3, 2008 19:21 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The UK is wabbling, but a lot of us under about the age of 40 are wholly 
or largely metric, with only distances-driven and car speeds seeming to be 
persistent holdouts. (I'm not even sure what a stone is, and I hardly ever 
use feet.)

Metric system (was OOXML gets ISO approval)

Posted Apr 3, 2008 20:39 UTC (Thu) by moreati (subscriber, #5715) [Link]

We also buy our milk and beer in multiples of 0.568261485 litres, for some quaint historic
reason.

Incidentally, until now I never knew there is both a US pint & a UK (aka imperial) pint.

Metric system (was OOXML gets ISO approval)

Posted Apr 3, 2008 20:47 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Oh indeed. That sort of wild regional variability (same names, different 
units) is why the French came up with the metric system in the first 
place...

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