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On the vger.kernel.org outage
Update: It looks like vger has come back up.
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RAID array
Posted Mar 19, 2008 19:25 UTC (Wed) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link]
What model of RAID array is this? It looks like one to avoid if the failure of a single drive brought down the array.
RAID array
Posted Mar 19, 2008 20:50 UTC (Wed) by wtarreau (guest, #51152) [Link]
RAID is not about resistance to any sort of partial failure we can imagine, it's about ensuring that upon a disk failure you will not lose your data. If one disk becomes 99% slower but still works, there's no reason it would be marked faulty, but in practise the service is not assured anymore. However, having a guy overthere replace it fixes the problem.
RAID array
Posted Mar 19, 2008 21:02 UTC (Wed) by ajross (subscriber, #4563) [Link]
That said, raid arrays that fail when plugging in a specific device are awfully suspect. Signal problems on the port should be a soft failure, not a hard one. That's the whole spending lots of money on server hardware. If it was OK for a drive to take down the system, they could have been running on a $900 box from Walmart. All file server boxes really need is a ton of RAM. Disk bandwidth needn't enter into it. Didn't I see a report a while back that kernel.org was, in fact, serving everything out of cache anyway? All of which, really, just goes down as evidence for my long-held opinion that hardware-level solutions for reliability never work. Reliability can only be achieved at the software level via full redundancy.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 17:31 UTC (Thu) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]
"Reliability can only be achieved at the software level." Instead of a mailing list, a Usenet-like discussion system on top of git?
RAID array
Posted Mar 21, 2008 6:20 UTC (Fri) by njs (subscriber, #40338) [Link]
Amusingly, the original vision for monotone actually had NNTP as the primary intended network transport.
RAID array
Posted Mar 19, 2008 21:51 UTC (Wed) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]
RAID is nowhere near as reliable in practice as it appears on paper - one example is that you frequently find, after a single disk (A) has failed, that another disk (B) 'fails during recovery' - in reality, some sectors on disk B failed first but on a sector that did not get read or written, so the bad sectors are only picked up during RAID recovery, which entails reading the whole of disk B and others. See http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/linux-nas-raid.html for coverage of some of these issues and how NetApp and others would cover them. Personally I would only use ZFS, NetApp or something similar that does a lot of media scrubbing, sector checksumming etc, in addition to basic RAID.
RAID array
Posted Mar 19, 2008 22:20 UTC (Wed) by quotemstr (subscriber, #45331) [Link]
We use 3ware controllers at work, which can be set up to automatically and periodically verify that no sectors ave failed. That feature has already saved us once.
RAID array
Posted Mar 19, 2008 23:38 UTC (Wed) by daniel (subscriber, #3181) [Link]
"Personally I would only use ZFS, NetApp or something similar that does a lot of media scrubbing, sector checksumming etc, in addition to basic RAID." Would that not be an admission of defeat for Linux?
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 22:29 UTC (Thu) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]
Yes, it means I could only use Linux currently for storage if I went for ZFS/FUSE. This is a significant weakness in the Linux story - perhaps btrfs will go some way to fixing this, but overall it seems that Linux RAID and associated sector-checksumming filesystems are a long way behind where it needs to be. I don't think this stuff is particularly hard to do, but it does require some focused work on btrfs and on RAID improvements, and there are patent risks due to the Sun/NetApp patent lawsuits, of course.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 6:46 UTC (Thu) by pbrutsch (subscriber, #4987) [Link]
That is a very common feature, and most certaily not limited to 3ware! I have Areca, Adaptec, and LSI Logic RAID cards that can all do the same.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 12:23 UTC (Thu) by wurtel (subscriber, #7155) [Link]
Linux software raid (md) can also check an array for problems, Debian offers to run a cronjob every month to do that, if you install mdadm. Coupled with SMART autotests you're pretty safe.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 20:20 UTC (Thu) by hmh (subscriber, #3838) [Link]
If you want to be pretty safe, you'll need to test every *day*, not once a month. I know this from experience.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 22:31 UTC (Thu) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]
This sounds like a useful media scrubbing feature. However, sector checksumming seems like it requires filesystem changes, and I've only seen that proposed in btrfs, which is in early development stages.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 19:35 UTC (Thu) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]
there are many ways that an electrical failure of a drive can knock out a computer. think of what would happen if it shorts out the 5v or 12 power going into the drive for an obvious example. in practice it's normally not that bad, but especially fro a SCSI array you don't normally have a seperate cable for each drive, you have them connected to a bus. if a drive is bad it can cause the bus to lock up when the drive address is probed. I would also be interested in the specifics of the hardware, but this sort of failure mode is not uncommon, and the number of systems that actually implement protection against all of them is extremely small.
RAID array
Posted Mar 20, 2008 20:28 UTC (Thu) by hmh (subscriber, #3838) [Link]
At least for RAID1 and RAID10, you should use two channels (and depending on what is doing the mirroring, two controllers), and two enclosures. Each half of a mirror pair is on a separate enclosure and channel. An electrical failure can still knock out the entire system, as the buses are not optical, but the usual failure modes for drives nowadays have them at maximum locking up the SCSI bus (and usually they don't get that bad). Shorts are not common IME. Anyway, with SAS and SATA, which are point-to-point links, the use of separate enclosures (due to the power feed) and controllers becomes the real point. One point of notice: Linux is not good for reliability here, unless you can remove the "IRQ handler killer" from the picture (e.g by using extremely good controllers that don't do stupid things, and only one device per IRQ line). You have been warned. A lot of failure modes cause weirdness on the controllers, and may cause spurious IRQs. If the kernel kicks the IRQ line away, there goes everything tied to that IRQ line. This is specially bad on SATA.
On the vger.kernel.org outage
Posted Mar 19, 2008 22:06 UTC (Wed) by cwarner (subscriber, #47176) [Link]
Why is it that http://cacti.kernel.org/graph_view.php?action=tree&tr... requires a login?
On the vger.kernel.org outage
Posted Mar 20, 2008 0:21 UTC (Thu) by eeek (guest, #51156) [Link]
The firehose is flowing now. Looks like it's time to get back to work.
On the vger.kernel.org outage
Posted Mar 20, 2008 13:49 UTC (Thu) by olecom (guest, #42886) [Link]
It doesn't host neither archives nor NNTP, so why it's such a problem due to storage drives failure? Swap?
On the vger.kernel.org outage
Posted Mar 20, 2008 18:47 UTC (Thu) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]
I'd guess the subscriber lists (as used by the mailing list software) are on the array. It's also necessary to write messages to disk during delivery because there are recipients whose mail servers won't respond before it's necessary to acknowledge the messages from the senders, but the subscriber lists are the reason you'd need data stored previously to have the mailing lists work (aside from the eventual delivery of messages that were in progress when the array crashed).
On the vger.kernel.org outage
Posted Mar 21, 2008 3:35 UTC (Fri) by mgalgoci (subscriber, #24168) [Link]
The problem actually wasn't disk or raid related, but filesystem related after a kernel oops and panic. jfyi.
On the vger.kernel.org outage
Posted Mar 21, 2008 11:44 UTC (Fri) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]
This is something of a concern too - would be interesting to know the filesystem used, how it was configured (e.g. for ext3, was barrier=1 in effect to ensure that data=ordered works properly with drive-level write-caching), kernel version, etc. A kernel oops shouldn't cause a very long filesystem recovery, unless perhaps the disks are so huge that a full fsck takes a very long time. But then a journalling filesystem should prevent such long fsck's anyway...