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voting "machines" eliminate votingvoting "machines" eliminate votingPosted Mar 18, 2008 16:28 UTC (Tue) by grouch (subscriber, #27289)In reply to: voting "machines" by ccyoung Parent article: Sequoia v. Ed Felten It wouldn't matter if the voting machine used software, transistors or gears -- if the voters cannot watch and verify the process of voting, the voting is flawed. (At least in the case of geared voting machines, the gears could be made observable by the general public at all times during the process. This can't happen with electrons). Typical, current process in the U.S.:
Which of the above verifies any part of: One vote has been cast by one voter, is held safely for counting until voting is finished and then is properly counted? Typical paper balloting:
In the so-called voting involving an electronic device, the internal operations of the device are concealed from the electorate. A number comes from those internal operations of the device but no one can attest to that number being representative of the electorate. Unless and until voters can observe the activity of electrons in wires, publicly verifiable voting by electronics is impossible.
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voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 17:50 UTC (Tue) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] While those steps are auditable.. they are rarely audited... leaving most voting in the same state as electronics. Looking at a gear system doesnt say much if the gears in the system are so complicated all you can tell is that something moved and you end up with not looking at the counters but the punch tape that no-one can see for 'privacy' concerns. And then there is which paper system you are going to use. At some point you are going to count a million or so votes and people want answers quickly.. so automatic systems are going to be used. The software in that is as easily hacked and unless the vote is 'close' or highly out of whack with external polling.. its not going to be rechecked.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 18:51 UTC (Tue) by AJWM (subscriber, #15888) [Link] Plenty of countries, and subdivisions thereof, around the world have no problem manually counting paper ballots in a timely fashion. It is a task that can be (and usually is) broken down into many parallel sub-tasks. Mind, that's simplified even further if you print up a separate ballot for each separate contest/issue in the election, as opposed to e.g. some of the massive four-page ballots I've seen with multiple issues and positions to vote on. Color code them so they get put in the right ballot boxes. Reliable paper-balloting systems aren't difficult (there'll still be attempts to defraud, as with missing ballot boxes, improperly registered voters, etc, these tend to be rather obvious). Even automated paper-counting systems can be spot-checked with manual counts, and the whole automatic count thrown out if there's a problem (you may end up with the "hanging chad" issue; that can be resolved by ballot redesign and making very clear ahead of time what constitutes a valid vs invalid vote.) Reliable machine-balloting systems are extremely difficult, with too many ways to stealthily influence the outcome.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 20:32 UTC (Tue) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] > Plenty of countries, and subdivisions thereof, around the world have no > problem manually counting paper ballots in a timely fashion. It is a > task that can be (and usually is) broken down into many parallel > sub-tasks. OK for the record I am for paper ballots, but I do not see them as a panacea as places like Chicago, Louisiana and New Mexico have shown that they can be rigged for a long time. The main problem is that as much as we argue about accountability, that is not what matters.. cost matters. The cost of using an automated counting system with a cramped ballot versus the cost of paying 10's of thousands of people to count ballots by hand, ( and then doing background checks on those people to see which ones have been paid off by various 'interested' groups etc). And the problems are those are short term costs versus trying to figure out what a long term cost of a subverted election would be. As long as the perceived cost of the machines is smaller than the man-power costs.. you are on a losing argument.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 19, 2008 8:25 UTC (Wed) by socket (subscriber, #43) [Link] What? Are you seriously arguing that having an affordable system is more important than accountability? I don't know the numbers on how much it costs to run an election with the different systems we're talking about, but really... if accountability doesn't matter more than cost, what's the point of holding the election? Let's just skip the election and just give the presidency to whichever candidate is more popular with the supreme court. That *has* to be more affordable, and therefore better than actually bothering to count votes. Oh, wait. Somehow, I get the feeling that this could be a really, really bad idea.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 19, 2008 14:51 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] I am not arguing that affordable is better than accountability.. I am arguing that it is usually considered more important by people. People as a group are usually short-sighted and end up with not thinking things through. So when they see they have to hire more people to run an election or get some roads repaired, or raise taxes.. they will go with the roads getting repaired. If they have the choice between hiring more people for an election or a bright shiney gadget that will solve their problems and they dont have to stop road repairs or raise taxes.. they will go for the gadget (because don't gadgets always make life easier?) And only when it turns out that they made a bad decision, they will hem and haw for a couple more elections until some better gadget comes out.. because we humans are built not to recognize we bought a lemon.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 22, 2008 2:39 UTC (Sat) by dvdeug (subscriber, #10998) [Link] If something is not affordable, it won't happen. In a count of hands, you can do a recount easily. A vote of the populace is rarely a complete recount, because it's too expensive to. If the equivalent of recounting the paper ballots is cheap, it may be standard practice for every ballot; if it's too expensive, it will only occur when a smoking gun appears. That's reality.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 23:50 UTC (Tue) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] "While those steps are auditable.. they are rarely audited..." Writing from Australia, which uses paper-and-pencil ballots administered by a central government agency, this is wrong. Political parties have their representatives auditing every step of the election process at every election. Some merely interested individuals also do the same. I mean every step, from sitting all day in a polling place watching ballots being cast, to accompanying the ballot boxes to the tally room, to watching every vote being counted, to making sure those exact counts appear on the board in the national tally room. Your typical vote will have three mutually-untrusting people ensuring that your vote has been fairly and accurately treated from the moment you are given the ballot paper to the declaration of the election results. As for speed, at the recent election we knew the result by 10pm east coast time (that is, the west coast polling booths had been closed for an hour). I'd say the paper-based system adds a delay of thirty minutes to an hour. Not a huge amount considering the many-weeks delay non-paper-and-pencil systems caused in determining the US Presidency in the Bush v Gore election.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 19, 2008 15:08 UTC (Wed) by holstein (subscriber, #6122) [Link] It's the same here in Canada: major party representative are present in every step of the vote. I never understood why it could not be done this way in the US. It's not like it's rocket science.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 19, 2008 16:20 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] I think it has to do with the differences in states levels of control in Canada and the US.. plus the differences between parliamentary governments and the US 'style'. Each US state can set its own election rules on who deals with the election materials. The Federal government can really only give outlines and say that if you 'fail' to meet those standards you lose federal funding. The states are really protective of this, as it is one of the last 'sovereign' powers they have in comparison to the Federal government. However, I will admit that I am on a thin branch here.. and could be quite wrong.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 25, 2008 7:37 UTC (Tue) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link] It's not hard to count a million, or a hundred million, paper-votes quickly and correctly. The task is trivial to split in any wanted number of smaller tasks. You'll need about 3 hours to count 10.000 votes, count twice by two different people who don't know the answers the other got and don't know who the other is, and let the result count as the preliminary result if the numbers they give are off by less than say 1/1000. But you don't even need to do that: Have voting-machines that record votes electronically AND print a paper-ballot. Deposit the paper-ballot the traditional way. Use the numbers from the machine for the preliminary results. Randomly check say 1% or 5% of the ballots, by the trivially simple method of actually counting the slips of paper and comparing them to the number the machine gave. If the numbers disagree, count everything, or invalidate the entire election, probably okay here too to accept 1:10000 error or similar. You don't need to count all the paper all the time. You DO need to be ABLE to check the result. There's a difference.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 18:12 UTC (Tue) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] It's certianly possible to do verifiable electronic voting. Here, for example, is the tally sheet for the last Debian election. Using this tally sheet, each voter can verify that their vote was counted, while the secrecy of who they voted for is preserved. http://www.debian.org/vote/2007/vote_001_tally.txt The ballots themselves are gpg signed by the voters. Every step of this vote can be verified and audited.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 18:58 UTC (Tue) by AJWM (subscriber, #15888) [Link] > The ballots themselves are gpg signed by the voters. Looks like the voters combine their vote with a personal secret key and find the md5sum, making it difficult to reverse to break anonymity. That's fine for a relatively small set of technically competent voters. How would you design a system that implements this for, say, 100 million voters, half of whom are of below-average intelligence?
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 19:34 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] Right, the most important thing about any voting system is public confidence. Most people in a democracy have only a vague and probably erroneous idea of how it actually works, but so long as they have confidence that it /does/ work it remains viable. It's much like the situation with runs on the bank. Irrational behavior by investors who've lost confidence can bring a well run financial institution to its knees in hours, while over the road a confidence trickster is running a pyramid scam doomed to fail but they can't take money from investors fast enough. It's not enough to build a system that math wizards and other experts judge to be sound, it must be so simple that you can take a dozen people off the street and expect every one of them to explain correctly how and why it works. That's why so many countries have stuck with marks written on pieces of paper, stuffing the pieces of paper into sealed metal boxes, and lots of people standing around putting the papers into piles and counting them. My grandmother can understand that. It even aids public understanding when things go wrong. Some guy with a nice suit who "modified the binary code of a voting machine" and thus changed the outcome of an election is difficult to understand - a jury may never grasp what he's really accused of doing. But the equivalent operation on real ballot papers involves a group of people deliberately miscounting or putting papers in the wrong piles. A child can see that's naughty, and a jury will convict.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 23:11 UTC (Tue) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] In all fairness, I should note that publishing a tally sheet like this, which you can use to prove your vote to a third party, does make it easy for votes to be bought. Which is a property that is not desirable in a real-life voting system..
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 18, 2008 23:42 UTC (Tue) by hingo (subscriber, #14792) [Link] As I understand it, the Debian voting is also based on sending gpg encrypted and signed votes to a server that is trusted to keep it secret. That would also not work in real elections. A good voting protocol must be designed so that the "who gave this vote" and "what is the content of the vote" are never known to the same party/component. At the same time of course it must be proven that who gave the vote is eligible to vote and voted only once.There are however protocols that can do this, some quite good, some "almost there". This is quite a good summary of all protocols out there.
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 19, 2008 7:41 UTC (Wed) by pkolloch (subscriber, #21709) [Link] Or look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingo_Voting (German) or http://punchscan.org/
voting "machines" eliminate voting Posted Mar 19, 2008 9:43 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] “A good voting protocol must be designed so that...” As I wrote above, the important thing is public confidence. Britain's major public elections have always made it possible (though not trivial) to match every single vote cast to the voter's name and address. But British people have yet to do more than occasionally moan that this seems a little underhanded. To get specific, each ballot paper in a British election is numbered and when you're handed a ballot paper its number is written next to your name on the list of those eligible to vote in the election. This material must by law be kept for some time after the election is over. All you need is a reverse index (painful sixty years ago, but easy now) and you have a list of how everyone voted. We know (from documents released under a time limit rule) that previous governments have secretly authorised security services to match the numbers up and then target people who voted for certain minority parties. Obviously today's government denies that it would do such a thing, but that's the nature of politics.
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