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GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 11, 2008 23:43 UTC (Tue) by karim (subscriber, #114)
In reply to: GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) by ewan
Parent article: GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Freedom is a loaded word, and it's unfortunately relative. Your freedom of thought, and mine,
is limited by our brains' limited storage. You are in fact *not* free to think of things or
associate things you have not already stored. Sucks being human.

Fact is there are plenty of things in life that you aren't "free" to hack. The bridge you
cross over with your car, the plane you take, the electric grid that powers your computer,
etc. And you and I would really rather it be that way: we just feel safer if they'd work. That
doesn't preclude the fact there are civil engineers, mechanical engineers and electrical
engineers who are perfectly capable of usefully hacking bridges, planes and electrical grids,
respectively in that *very specific* order, without causing a problem.

Despite your argument about freedom, that very reply you wrote was likely written on hardware
for which you have no ability to modify. In fact, while software developers sometimes may
entertain doing nitty-gritty hardware modifications (desoldering, replacing chips, etc.) the
vast majority just want one thing: hardware that works (i.e. no bugs, no quirks, no racy
behavior, etc.) Yet, such modifiability would likely be a desirable feature by those that do
design hardware. For them, having the freedom to modify their hardware is likely of interest.
Again, not without coincidence, there are FLOSS hardware projects out there. Surely we would
all benefit from having hardware that is free as in freedom. Yet, I don't think I'd be too
wrong in saying that *all* "free software" advocates are running unfree hardware.

And I could repeat this story with those that like to hack on the processes used to develop
hardware, then those that hack atoms, then those that hack ...

See ... it's all a matter of which layer you want to build on. If you're a hardware developer,
the manufacturing process is where you want to stop, if you're a software developer it's the
hardware, if you're a user it's the software. At each and every stop the individual expects
the underlying layer to just work.

In that regard, Linux still fails for mainstream users today. And no amount of
software-developer idealism will convert a user from being a user. The faster we get over this
the better.

Karim Yaghmour
Founder and CEO
Kryptiva inc.


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GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 2:14 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

Freedom is a loaded word, and it's unfortunately relative. Your freedom of thought, and mine, is limited by our brains' limited storage. You are in fact *not* free to think of things or associate things you have not already stored. Sucks being human.

You are simply confusing the word freedom with capability here. You are not capable of running 100MPH, but yet you are free to do so.

Fact is there are plenty of things in life that you aren't "free" to hack. The bridge you cross over with your car, the plane you take, the electric grid that powers your computer, etc. And you and I would really rather it be that way: we just feel safer if they'd work. That doesn't preclude the fact there are civil engineers, mechanical engineers and electrical engineers who are perfectly capable of usefully hacking bridges, planes and electrical grids, respectively in that *very specific* order, without causing a problem.

Here you used the word capable correctly, :) but then you give examples which simply state that I am not free to control other people's property. For those who have actually tried to define freedom, it tends to mean having the ability to control one's own property, not the property of others.

Despite your argument about freedom, that very reply you wrote was likely written on hardware for which you have no ability to modify. In fact, while software developers sometimes may entertain doing nitty-gritty hardware modifications (desoldering, replacing chips, etc.) the vast majority just want one thing: hardware that works (i.e. no bugs, no quirks, no racy behavior, etc.) Yet, such modifiability would likely be a desirable feature by those that do design hardware. For them, having the freedom to modify their hardware is likely of interest. Again, not without coincidence, there are FLOSS hardware projects out there. Surely we would all benefit from having hardware that is free as in freedom. Yet, I don't think I'd be too wrong in saying that *all* "free software" advocates are running unfree hardware.

Lots of muddying going on here, starting with confusing (cap)ability with freedom again, value judgements on what some people want (unrelated to freedom), making the incorrect assumption that the existence of free harwardare projects means that hardware isn't normally free, and a final assertion that is most likely way off base since the only unfree (not unmodifiable) parts to most hardware is the software.

See ... it's all a matter of which layer you want to build on. If you're a hardware developer, the manufacturing process is where you want to stop, if you're a software developer it's the hardware, if you're a user it's the software. At each and every stop the individual expects the underlying layer to just work.

This logic is getting tiring. While I no longer want to work on my car, I certainly want the freedom to do so, or to hire someone else to do so. I think car users want that freedom and expect it, so much that they could almost never even imagine that they wouldn't have it. One of the issues that we are talking about is infact informing users that they don't have that freedom with software.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 2:59 UTC (Wed) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link]

>making the incorrect assumption that the existence of free harwardare projects means that
hardware isn't normally free, and a final assertion that is most likely way off base since the
only unfree (not unmodifiable) parts to most hardware is the software. 

While I agree with your overall point, I see a bigger problem here with the post to which you
are responding.  It fails to acknowledge what makes software special in the context of
freedom.  As information, software is (1) non-rival and (2) is both input and output of its
own production process(*).  Considerations such as freedom must be re-evaluated in such a
context, and, indeed, the re-evaluation has been taking place for some time now, such as in
court cases (e.g., software patents).  From the beginning decades ago, Stallman's arguments
have acknowledged the special qualities of software.  

(*)See _Wealth of Networks_, Yochai Benkler.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 4:21 UTC (Wed) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

Notice the use of the word "relative" in my very first phrase.

For the rest, you hair-splitting is unconvincing. While different in different contexts,
freedom, capability and need are not unrelated. You should, in fact, be capable of
understanding the entire operation of proprietary software just by disassembling the code.
After all these are instructions to a CPU. Whether you have the legal freedom to do that or
whether the simple possibility of doing this constitutes freedom to modify it once you
understand it in its entirety are entirely separate from your capability to understand the
opcodes. Of course you would argue that this is not true freedom because you can't make
modifications in your preferred form (source code) and the APIs are unpublished, but then you
could just be called lazy: sucks being you if the "code" isn't available in your preferred
form or if you have to disassemble the entirety of the underlying layers to make your program
work. But it remains that in your basement you are *relatively* "free" to do these things.

With regards to your car example, then you're wrong. Sure I am free to bring my car to any
mechanic I want. Much like any regular user is free to bring their computer to whichever
computer repair store they want. But at the end of the day replacement parts (whether they are
software parts or car parts) are going to have to conform to interfaces which are of no choice
to you. And sometimes, in some key car components, you have no choice but to buy the original
manufacturer's parts, regardless of who's repairing your car. In that specific case, arguing
whether spending the appropriate amount of time to reverse engineer said part makes you
"capable" or "free" is really silly. At the end of the day you just want the car to work.
That's what normal users want from software.

With regards to hardware, then you either didn't understand what I wrote or it serves you to
deform it. The fact is you have no access to the vhdl or whatever "code" was used by the
manufacturer to create the chips you use. In fact while you are "free" to change the chips on
your motherboard, most users aren't really capable of doing that, especially since that would
mean have to reverse-engineer the rest of the board so that the replacement fits perfectly.
Much like the disassembly example above: you are "free" but you likely won't take the time and
don't have the proper equipment, so you aren't really "capable" of doing it in a reasonable
time-frame and, in the end, you aren't really free. Nor are you "free" to uncap a chip,
replace the silicon and "fix" or hack it. Your only freedom then is to ditch the hardware and
use something else. Again, I am totally on the spot of saying with some degree of confidence
that *all* free software advocates use unfree hardware and see no problem with that
whatsoever.

Informing users that they have no "freedom" to have their software modified or fixed has no
bearing on the fact that most users wouldn't consider that such "capability" is any more
important than the "capability" for an auto-mechanic to hack their breaks. It might be of
interest to car mechanics amongst themselves, but not their customers.

There is, as a reply to your post rightly points out, some truth to the assertion that there
is a difference between software and the rest of the wares created by humans. That I agree
with, and that's why I've put a lot of the software I did under the GPL. The intangible yet
tangible nature of software does give it properties unlike other embodiments of human thought.

Personally I've found it astounding that our daily lives are controlled by software that only
a handful have vetted. Surely there's a moral argument to be made about making such code
available for all to see.

Regardless of software's special properties, though, it remains that users have little use for
the freedom granted to them by free software. Only the capabilities made available to them by
software matter. And that's why free software will continue to be chosen out in favor of
proprietary software because capability comes before freedom. Having a free car with no seats
is interesting, but it doesn't provide me with the capability to answer my need to go from
point A to point B.

Karim Yaghmour
Founder and CEO
Kryptiva inc.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 6:16 UTC (Wed) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]

Thanks to both of you in this thread.  I can't say where I come down on 
this particular debate, but it has certainly provided food for thought, 
giving at least me an opportunity to examine both the general debate and 
my own thoughts on the matter in more depth than normal.

And yes, I think it's important, so much so that my NNTP and mailing-list 
sig is a quote from Richard Stallman:

"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."

Again, thanks for the debate, as it has informed my own thoughts on the 
matter, which is after all the purpose thereof, right?  I know it'll take 
a bit to let it sink in and see how it all settles out, in my own 
thoughts.

Duncan

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 13, 2008 7:59 UTC (Thu) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]

I believe your analogies are misleading, and sometimes disregard the fundamental differences
between information and hardware. It is sometimes better to try to explain your actual
viewpoint than your analogies.

My counterpoint to your car example is that you are free to modify your car to get any desired
behaviour you want. Of course, if you wanted to use public roads then you need to get an
assurance that it was all done in a safe way, depending on your local laws.

Your counterpoint would be that while I am allowed to do so the blueprints/APIs are not always
publicly available. And less so today than a few years ago especially since digital equipment
in cars are often black boxes (in every way), which is a bit ironic. Then I would say that
while not always available, reverse engineering them is mostly legal and the information is
available from third parties. Which gets us nowhere on the finer points of free software. It
only proves that analogies are like giraffes.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 7:46 UTC (Wed) by janpla (guest, #11093) [Link]

You are simply confusing the word freedom with capability here. You are not capable of running 100MPH, but yet you are free to do so.

Not true - the speed limits apply even to pedestrians and cyclists, as a matter of fact :-)

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 13:10 UTC (Wed) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link]

That depends on your local law. In the UK for example, posted speed limits are specifically
for motor vehicles, not pedestrians or cyclists. Different  laws apply to them (a cyclist
going unreasonably fast can be charged with 'furious cycling', for exmple). Pretty-much
off-topic now.

On the main point it's certainly true that all free-software people use non-free hardware. I
make free hardware for a living (balloonboard) but still nearly all of my hardware is
non-free. A few people are trying to improve matters in this area, with various open hardware
efforts at the board level and opencores.org and chipforge.org at the silicon/vhdl level.
Progress is going to remain very slow in this area until more hardware engineers see it as a
useful/interesting/important thing todo. Currently interest levels seem low - they mostly seem
happy to use proprietary tools to make proprietary designs. Maybe we need a Stallman for
hardware...Hagen Sankowski is doing his bit, for example, but he really needs some help.


GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 15:50 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

I think that you are confused about free hardware. Hardware is free by default (think X license), patents excepted. There is no need for free hardware projects to make hardware free. The free hardware projects are about adding the equivalent of copyleft (think GPL) to hardware which is an entirely different argument than arguing over free. If you have purchased a piece of hardware, you are typically free to do what you want with it (as long as you don't do things to other property you don't own with it), you do not have this freedom with software unless it is free software. So, again please do not let the free hardware projects influence you to think that your hardware that you own ins't free (except for firmware)!

but still nearly all of my hardware is non-free.

Could you please give me one example of non-free hardware?

Maybe we need a Stallman for hardware...

We don't exactly because hardware is already free!

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 16:56 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (subscriber, #2285) [Link]

It's free for *now*.  Just wait until home fabbers/replicators become affordable.  *Then*
you'll see copyright laws applied to hardware.

Really, hardware is no different than the compiled machine code of software.  It's the result
of converting a design into the final result, therefore the final result, the hardware, is
*obviously* a derived work of the design.

Just wait. :)

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 20:31 UTC (Wed) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

"If you have purchased a piece of hardware, you are typically free to do what you want with
it"

Great, so please give me the steps required to fix a buggy video chip or a race condition in
my CPU.

"Could you please give me one example of non-free hardware?"

Sure, visit dell.com, hp.com, ibm.com or any other such site. Chances are you're only going to
be able to purchase hardware made from proprietary components. You are equally free to modify
these systems as you are of modifying proprietary binaries. In fact, the latter is likely much
easier than the former.

Karim Yaghmour
Founder and CEO
Kryptiva inc.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 12, 2008 20:48 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link]

You still refuse to differentiate between free and capable, one is a legal matter, the other is a physical matter.

...Chances are you're only going to be able to purchase hardware made from proprietary components. You are equally free to modify these systems as you are of modifying proprietary binaries. In fact, the latter is likely much easier than the former.

You are using the term free when you mean capable. Perhaps I am not capable of modifying the hardware, but if I try and if I fail or succed, I will not go to jail or face legal penalties for it. If I try to modify the software and fail or succeed because it is easy, I am likely to face criminal prosecution, fines and jail.

You expressed earlier that you think that I am splitting hairs on this terminology, but it is important to understand what you/I mean when we talk about things. Free and capable are not the same, I am clearly illustrating two different concepts and you continually give examples of one when you mean the other. You may choose to conclude that both have the same effect for you, but this does not make them the same. Understanding the difference may keep someone out of jail someday.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 13, 2008 0:51 UTC (Thu) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

"You still refuse to differentiate between free and capable, one is a legal matter, the other
is a physical matter."

So therefore the argument is that it's perfectly coherent to call hardware "free" even though
I am incapable of doing with it what I want? Sorry, maybe I'm confused but for me capability
is a precondition to freedom. If I lack the capability to grow wings, it's really of little
use that I be free to do so. The whole point of free software is user empowerment. Here's from
the FSF:
<quote>
Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and
improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the
software:

    * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
    * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1).
Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
    * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
    * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that
the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for
this.
</quote>

Notice that freedom 1 entitles me to "study" and "adapt". How I can "study" and "adapt" the
chips running inside my computer right now evades me. Here's chipforge's take on this whole
thing:
http://www.chipforge.org/policy/future_oss.html
<quote>
"Without Open Source Hardware, Open Source Software can't survive!"
</quote>

With regards to legality then bare in mind that at the time the free software movement was
started by Richard, the legal landscape was very different in the US. In fact, those laws that
will get have you put in prison today for reverse-engineer stuff did not exist then, and, in
fact, do not exist in most countries, except the US. Hence, free software advocates worldwide
do not champion free software out of fear. Then do so because of the empowerment free software
gives them. And that's what drives me personally. There is something about knowing that I can
hack my software to death that is very rewarding, and so to is the knowledge that the software
I use is a living fabric that is continuously being sown by the intellect and generosity of
people I can talk back to and have a human connection with -- a far cry from proprietary
software which is like those cold sandwiches you buy from vending machines here and there, you
buy them because you're hungry not because they inspire you.

My prerogatives, and those of other software developers and free software developers, though,
have no bearing on users' expectation: software the just works.

Karim Yaghmour
Founder and CEO
Kryptiva inc.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 16, 2008 6:33 UTC (Sun) by JohnNilsson (subscriber, #41242) [Link]

I get the impression that you booth should agree on what kind of freedom you are referring to,
negative (freedom from) or positive (freedom to)?

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 19, 2008 4:17 UTC (Wed) by kevinbsmith (subscriber, #4778) [Link]

You might not have faced jail time, but you were certainly not free to redistribute modified
copies of most software. You would be punished.

Also, a much-overlooked aspect of free software, and one which is directly relevant to the
"freedom vs. capability" question, is that free software gives you the right to pay someone
else to do the work. Someone who has capabilities that you do not.

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 15, 2008 15:21 UTC (Sat) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]

Gamers and overclockers "fix" the video cards all the time, by modifying the clock signal or
doing other things in hardware. Audiophiles too. And don't get me started on car
enthusiasts...

GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)

Posted Mar 16, 2008 6:31 UTC (Sun) by JohnNilsson (subscriber, #41242) [Link]

Radio transmitters, such as wireless network adapters, are generally not legal to tamper with.

Hardware implementing a DRM-scheme are not legal to modify to circumvent the DRM part.

(Or rather the tampering is legal but certain actions in association to it would be
prohibited. Removing DRM as a service would be illegal f.ex.)

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