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GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation)
Over at Datamation, Bruce Byfield has a thoughtful piece about Linux and world domination. "At its most basic, free software is about helping users gain control of their computers so that they can participate unhindered in the digital conversations of the networks and the Internet. It's about installing software freely, rather than being dictated to by the manufacturer. It's about using your computer the way that you want, instead of ceding control to lock-down devices installed by software vendors without permission on your machine."
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GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 17:27 UTC (Tue) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link] Are computer users any less free if they don't know that they're free? I'm probably spoiled having grown up in a country with general freedoms and democratic representation in politics, no world wars or dictatorships compromising my liberty in every-day life. However, like the people of Rome wanting panem et circenses, the contemporary Western computer user wants an appliance-like device that just works. Getting Linux-on-the-Desktop to this state of reliable appliance-ware is a laudable goal in and of itself, because it comes with the benefits of doing so with free-as-in-GPL software.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 18:22 UTC (Tue) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] >Are computer users any less free if they don't know that they're free? Yes. As with other freedoms, the less they know, the less they will react to its degradation, the less disincentive distributors will have to degrade it, and thus the less likely that freedom will persist than if users were more aware of it. Software freedom is a fledgeling in the big picture of freedom, and so--especially given people's ever greater dependence on software--software freedom seems to be especially in need of attention and discussion.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 18:48 UTC (Tue) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] Are computer users any less free if they don't know that they're free?Absolutely!!! The whole point of computer freedom is that you have the right to do certain things: get access to source, modify such code, distribute binaries... Without the knowledge that you may legally do these things you effectively have no extra freedoms over proprietary software!
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 7:52 UTC (Wed) by janpla (guest, #11093) [Link] I disagree. It is very common in these modern times to talk about freedom as if it was an absolute, but it isn't. When you say "I'm free" or "It's free", one necessarily has to ask "From what?".
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 15:57 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] Well, fortunately, some people have thought about these issues long and hard, and they have even written very nice logical books on the subject trying to clarify what many would like you to stay confused about (if you can't describe liberty well, you can't defend it well). Might I suggest: http://www.mises.org/rothbard/ethics/ethics.asp
Freedom Posted Mar 21, 2008 11:21 UTC (Fri) by anton (guest, #25547) [Link] When you say "I'm free" or "It's free", one necessarily has to ask "From what?"Only in Newspeak. From the appendix of Nineteen Eighty-Four: To give a single example, the word free still existed in Newspeak, but could only be used in such statements as "The dog is free from lice" or "This field is free from weeds." It could not be used in its old sense of "politically free" or "intellectually free," since political and intellectual freedom no longer existed even as concepts, and were therefore of necessity nameless.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 19:12 UTC (Tue) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link] Parent is absolutely right. People want a toaster oven, they aren't toaster oven hackers. For the majority of users computers aren't a way of life, for anyone in the IT field they likely are ... is it really a coincidence if Linux is so popular in tech circles? I've been using Linux since ~'95 and have made a few contributions here and there, but when I went shopping for a family computer I got a Mac. Sorry, while I admire Jonathan's patience in trying to get a ton of what the majority of mainstream users would consider rudimentary tasks accomplished using Linux (say like creating decent DVDs) and his absolutely incredible patience to write it all down so that LWN readers can benefit from his fun (cough*pain*cough), my wife and kids have no reason to suffer this kind of below-average experience. On a personal level, though, -- I kid you not -- I'll do anything to have Linux running on my hardware. Lately I've spent a few weeks figuring out how to get a decent Linux install on an OQO 02 despite all postings showing that ultimately people kind'a give up. And I've made headway, but there's still quite a few things that just don't work ... and sometimes for very obscure reasons. So there, I'm all for championing free software / Linux / OSS / whatever you want to call it. But expecting the large public to just embrace an ideal that has no intimate connection to their daily lives is an unreasonable expectation. For them, Linux has got to just work. Nothing more ... and certainly nothing less. P.S.:Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to defend the need for the FSF and I think the world's been blessed to have someone like Stallman to stand for his ideals. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything the FSF says/does, espc. wrt embedded gizmos. Karim Yaghmour Founder and CEO Kryptiva inc.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 20:42 UTC (Tue) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link] The parent is wrong, most people want to get on with their lives, and aren't politicians - they don't stand for election, and many don't vote. Try taking away their /right/ to vote though, and most would think they were losing something pretty fundamental. Most people are quite firmly attached to the concept of freedom in spheres they're used to, and they're prepared to put up with quite a lot of unpleasant side effects (not least professional politicians) to get it. When it comes to software many people simply don't understand that, like speech, it can be free or repressed, they don't realise that there is an alternative to proprietary software, even as they're bemoaning the artificial restrictions it imposes on them. We win when they do realise, and we don't help that to happen by compromising on things like non-Free drivers, we do it by explaining that we're very sorry, but this isn't something that just happened, it's something that someone did to them on purpose, and if they don't like it they need to take it up with nVidia/Broadcom/Apple/Adobe etc and let them know they're not happy.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 23:43 UTC (Tue) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link] Freedom is a loaded word, and it's unfortunately relative. Your freedom of thought, and mine, is limited by our brains' limited storage. You are in fact *not* free to think of things or associate things you have not already stored. Sucks being human. Fact is there are plenty of things in life that you aren't "free" to hack. The bridge you cross over with your car, the plane you take, the electric grid that powers your computer, etc. And you and I would really rather it be that way: we just feel safer if they'd work. That doesn't preclude the fact there are civil engineers, mechanical engineers and electrical engineers who are perfectly capable of usefully hacking bridges, planes and electrical grids, respectively in that *very specific* order, without causing a problem. Despite your argument about freedom, that very reply you wrote was likely written on hardware for which you have no ability to modify. In fact, while software developers sometimes may entertain doing nitty-gritty hardware modifications (desoldering, replacing chips, etc.) the vast majority just want one thing: hardware that works (i.e. no bugs, no quirks, no racy behavior, etc.) Yet, such modifiability would likely be a desirable feature by those that do design hardware. For them, having the freedom to modify their hardware is likely of interest. Again, not without coincidence, there are FLOSS hardware projects out there. Surely we would all benefit from having hardware that is free as in freedom. Yet, I don't think I'd be too wrong in saying that *all* "free software" advocates are running unfree hardware. And I could repeat this story with those that like to hack on the processes used to develop hardware, then those that hack atoms, then those that hack ... See ... it's all a matter of which layer you want to build on. If you're a hardware developer, the manufacturing process is where you want to stop, if you're a software developer it's the hardware, if you're a user it's the software. At each and every stop the individual expects the underlying layer to just work. In that regard, Linux still fails for mainstream users today. And no amount of software-developer idealism will convert a user from being a user. The faster we get over this the better. Karim Yaghmour Founder and CEO Kryptiva inc.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 2:14 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] Freedom is a loaded word, and it's unfortunately relative. Your freedom of thought, and mine, is limited by our brains' limited storage. You are in fact *not* free to think of things or associate things you have not already stored. Sucks being human.You are simply confusing the word freedom with capability here. You are not capable of running 100MPH, but yet you are free to do so. Fact is there are plenty of things in life that you aren't "free" to hack. The bridge you cross over with your car, the plane you take, the electric grid that powers your computer, etc. And you and I would really rather it be that way: we just feel safer if they'd work. That doesn't preclude the fact there are civil engineers, mechanical engineers and electrical engineers who are perfectly capable of usefully hacking bridges, planes and electrical grids, respectively in that *very specific* order, without causing a problem.Here you used the word capable correctly, :) but then you give examples which simply state that I am not free to control other people's property. For those who have actually tried to define freedom, it tends to mean having the ability to control one's own property, not the property of others. Despite your argument about freedom, that very reply you wrote was likely written on hardware for which you have no ability to modify. In fact, while software developers sometimes may entertain doing nitty-gritty hardware modifications (desoldering, replacing chips, etc.) the vast majority just want one thing: hardware that works (i.e. no bugs, no quirks, no racy behavior, etc.) Yet, such modifiability would likely be a desirable feature by those that do design hardware. For them, having the freedom to modify their hardware is likely of interest. Again, not without coincidence, there are FLOSS hardware projects out there. Surely we would all benefit from having hardware that is free as in freedom. Yet, I don't think I'd be too wrong in saying that *all* "free software" advocates are running unfree hardware.Lots of muddying going on here, starting with confusing (cap)ability with freedom again, value judgements on what some people want (unrelated to freedom), making the incorrect assumption that the existence of free harwardare projects means that hardware isn't normally free, and a final assertion that is most likely way off base since the only unfree (not unmodifiable) parts to most hardware is the software. See ... it's all a matter of which layer you want to build on. If you're a hardware developer, the manufacturing process is where you want to stop, if you're a software developer it's the hardware, if you're a user it's the software. At each and every stop the individual expects the underlying layer to just work.This logic is getting tiring. While I no longer want to work on my car, I certainly want the freedom to do so, or to hire someone else to do so. I think car users want that freedom and expect it, so much that they could almost never even imagine that they wouldn't have it. One of the issues that we are talking about is infact informing users that they don't have that freedom with software.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 2:59 UTC (Wed) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] >making the incorrect assumption that the existence of free harwardare projects means that hardware isn't normally free, and a final assertion that is most likely way off base since the only unfree (not unmodifiable) parts to most hardware is the software. While I agree with your overall point, I see a bigger problem here with the post to which you are responding. It fails to acknowledge what makes software special in the context of freedom. As information, software is (1) non-rival and (2) is both input and output of its own production process(*). Considerations such as freedom must be re-evaluated in such a context, and, indeed, the re-evaluation has been taking place for some time now, such as in court cases (e.g., software patents). From the beginning decades ago, Stallman's arguments have acknowledged the special qualities of software. (*)See _Wealth of Networks_, Yochai Benkler.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 4:21 UTC (Wed) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link] Notice the use of the word "relative" in my very first phrase. For the rest, you hair-splitting is unconvincing. While different in different contexts, freedom, capability and need are not unrelated. You should, in fact, be capable of understanding the entire operation of proprietary software just by disassembling the code. After all these are instructions to a CPU. Whether you have the legal freedom to do that or whether the simple possibility of doing this constitutes freedom to modify it once you understand it in its entirety are entirely separate from your capability to understand the opcodes. Of course you would argue that this is not true freedom because you can't make modifications in your preferred form (source code) and the APIs are unpublished, but then you could just be called lazy: sucks being you if the "code" isn't available in your preferred form or if you have to disassemble the entirety of the underlying layers to make your program work. But it remains that in your basement you are *relatively* "free" to do these things. With regards to your car example, then you're wrong. Sure I am free to bring my car to any mechanic I want. Much like any regular user is free to bring their computer to whichever computer repair store they want. But at the end of the day replacement parts (whether they are software parts or car parts) are going to have to conform to interfaces which are of no choice to you. And sometimes, in some key car components, you have no choice but to buy the original manufacturer's parts, regardless of who's repairing your car. In that specific case, arguing whether spending the appropriate amount of time to reverse engineer said part makes you "capable" or "free" is really silly. At the end of the day you just want the car to work. That's what normal users want from software. With regards to hardware, then you either didn't understand what I wrote or it serves you to deform it. The fact is you have no access to the vhdl or whatever "code" was used by the manufacturer to create the chips you use. In fact while you are "free" to change the chips on your motherboard, most users aren't really capable of doing that, especially since that would mean have to reverse-engineer the rest of the board so that the replacement fits perfectly. Much like the disassembly example above: you are "free" but you likely won't take the time and don't have the proper equipment, so you aren't really "capable" of doing it in a reasonable time-frame and, in the end, you aren't really free. Nor are you "free" to uncap a chip, replace the silicon and "fix" or hack it. Your only freedom then is to ditch the hardware and use something else. Again, I am totally on the spot of saying with some degree of confidence that *all* free software advocates use unfree hardware and see no problem with that whatsoever. Informing users that they have no "freedom" to have their software modified or fixed has no bearing on the fact that most users wouldn't consider that such "capability" is any more important than the "capability" for an auto-mechanic to hack their breaks. It might be of interest to car mechanics amongst themselves, but not their customers. There is, as a reply to your post rightly points out, some truth to the assertion that there is a difference between software and the rest of the wares created by humans. That I agree with, and that's why I've put a lot of the software I did under the GPL. The intangible yet tangible nature of software does give it properties unlike other embodiments of human thought. Personally I've found it astounding that our daily lives are controlled by software that only a handful have vetted. Surely there's a moral argument to be made about making such code available for all to see. Regardless of software's special properties, though, it remains that users have little use for the freedom granted to them by free software. Only the capabilities made available to them by software matter. And that's why free software will continue to be chosen out in favor of proprietary software because capability comes before freedom. Having a free car with no seats is interesting, but it doesn't provide me with the capability to answer my need to go from point A to point B. Karim Yaghmour Founder and CEO Kryptiva inc.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 6:16 UTC (Wed) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link] Thanks to both of you in this thread. I can't say where I come down on this particular debate, but it has certainly provided food for thought, giving at least me an opportunity to examine both the general debate and my own thoughts on the matter in more depth than normal. And yes, I think it's important, so much so that my NNTP and mailing-list sig is a quote from Richard Stallman: "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Again, thanks for the debate, as it has informed my own thoughts on the matter, which is after all the purpose thereof, right? I know it'll take a bit to let it sink in and see how it all settles out, in my own thoughts. Duncan
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 13, 2008 7:59 UTC (Thu) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] I believe your analogies are misleading, and sometimes disregard the fundamental differences between information and hardware. It is sometimes better to try to explain your actual viewpoint than your analogies. My counterpoint to your car example is that you are free to modify your car to get any desired behaviour you want. Of course, if you wanted to use public roads then you need to get an assurance that it was all done in a safe way, depending on your local laws. Your counterpoint would be that while I am allowed to do so the blueprints/APIs are not always publicly available. And less so today than a few years ago especially since digital equipment in cars are often black boxes (in every way), which is a bit ironic. Then I would say that while not always available, reverse engineering them is mostly legal and the information is available from third parties. Which gets us nowhere on the finer points of free software. It only proves that analogies are like giraffes.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 7:46 UTC (Wed) by janpla (guest, #11093) [Link] You are simply confusing the word freedom with capability here. You are not capable of running 100MPH, but yet you are free to do so.Not true - the speed limits apply even to pedestrians and cyclists, as a matter of fact :-)
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 13:10 UTC (Wed) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link] That depends on your local law. In the UK for example, posted speed limits are specifically for motor vehicles, not pedestrians or cyclists. Different laws apply to them (a cyclist going unreasonably fast can be charged with 'furious cycling', for exmple). Pretty-much off-topic now. On the main point it's certainly true that all free-software people use non-free hardware. I make free hardware for a living (balloonboard) but still nearly all of my hardware is non-free. A few people are trying to improve matters in this area, with various open hardware efforts at the board level and opencores.org and chipforge.org at the silicon/vhdl level. Progress is going to remain very slow in this area until more hardware engineers see it as a useful/interesting/important thing todo. Currently interest levels seem low - they mostly seem happy to use proprietary tools to make proprietary designs. Maybe we need a Stallman for hardware...Hagen Sankowski is doing his bit, for example, but he really needs some help.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 15:50 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] I think that you are confused about free hardware. Hardware is free by default (think X license), patents excepted. There is no need for free hardware projects to make hardware free. The free hardware projects are about adding the equivalent of copyleft (think GPL) to hardware which is an entirely different argument than arguing over free. If you have purchased a piece of hardware, you are typically free to do what you want with it (as long as you don't do things to other property you don't own with it), you do not have this freedom with software unless it is free software. So, again please do not let the free hardware projects influence you to think that your hardware that you own ins't free (except for firmware)! but still nearly all of my hardware is non-free.Could you please give me one example of non-free hardware? Maybe we need a Stallman for hardware...We don't exactly because hardware is already free!
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 16:56 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (subscriber, #2285) [Link] It's free for *now*. Just wait until home fabbers/replicators become affordable. *Then* you'll see copyright laws applied to hardware. Really, hardware is no different than the compiled machine code of software. It's the result of converting a design into the final result, therefore the final result, the hardware, is *obviously* a derived work of the design. Just wait. :)
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 20:31 UTC (Wed) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link] "If you have purchased a piece of hardware, you are typically free to do what you want with it" Great, so please give me the steps required to fix a buggy video chip or a race condition in my CPU. "Could you please give me one example of non-free hardware?" Sure, visit dell.com, hp.com, ibm.com or any other such site. Chances are you're only going to be able to purchase hardware made from proprietary components. You are equally free to modify these systems as you are of modifying proprietary binaries. In fact, the latter is likely much easier than the former. Karim Yaghmour Founder and CEO Kryptiva inc.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 20:48 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] You still refuse to differentiate between free and capable, one is a legal matter, the other is a physical matter. ...Chances are you're only going to be able to purchase hardware made from proprietary components. You are equally free to modify these systems as you are of modifying proprietary binaries. In fact, the latter is likely much easier than the former.You are using the term free when you mean capable. Perhaps I am not capable of modifying the hardware, but if I try and if I fail or succed, I will not go to jail or face legal penalties for it. If I try to modify the software and fail or succeed because it is easy, I am likely to face criminal prosecution, fines and jail. You expressed earlier that you think that I am splitting hairs on this terminology, but it is important to understand what you/I mean when we talk about things. Free and capable are not the same, I am clearly illustrating two different concepts and you continually give examples of one when you mean the other. You may choose to conclude that both have the same effect for you, but this does not make them the same. Understanding the difference may keep someone out of jail someday.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 13, 2008 0:51 UTC (Thu) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]
"You still refuse to differentiate between free and capable, one is a legal matter, the other
is a physical matter."
So therefore the argument is that it's perfectly coherent to call hardware "free" even though
I am incapable of doing with it what I want? Sorry, maybe I'm confused but for me capability
is a precondition to freedom. If I lack the capability to grow wings, it's really of little
use that I be free to do so. The whole point of free software is user empowerment. Here's from
the FSF:
<quote>
Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and
improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the
software:
* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1).
Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that
the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for
this.
</quote>
Notice that freedom 1 entitles me to "study" and "adapt". How I can "study" and "adapt" the
chips running inside my computer right now evades me. Here's chipforge's take on this whole
thing:
http://www.chipforge.org/policy/future_oss.html
<quote>
"Without Open Source Hardware, Open Source Software can't survive!"
</quote>
With regards to legality then bare in mind that at the time the free software movement was
started by Richard, the legal landscape was very different in the US. In fact, those laws that
will get have you put in prison today for reverse-engineer stuff did not exist then, and, in
fact, do not exist in most countries, except the US. Hence, free software advocates worldwide
do not champion free software out of fear. Then do so because of the empowerment free software
gives them. And that's what drives me personally. There is something about knowing that I can
hack my software to death that is very rewarding, and so to is the knowledge that the software
I use is a living fabric that is continuously being sown by the intellect and generosity of
people I can talk back to and have a human connection with -- a far cry from proprietary
software which is like those cold sandwiches you buy from vending machines here and there, you
buy them because you're hungry not because they inspire you.
My prerogatives, and those of other software developers and free software developers, though,
have no bearing on users' expectation: software the just works.
Karim Yaghmour
Founder and CEO
Kryptiva inc.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 16, 2008 6:33 UTC (Sun) by JohnNilsson (subscriber, #41242) [Link] I get the impression that you booth should agree on what kind of freedom you are referring to, negative (freedom from) or positive (freedom to)?
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 19, 2008 4:17 UTC (Wed) by kevinbsmith (subscriber, #4778) [Link] You might not have faced jail time, but you were certainly not free to redistribute modified copies of most software. You would be punished. Also, a much-overlooked aspect of free software, and one which is directly relevant to the "freedom vs. capability" question, is that free software gives you the right to pay someone else to do the work. Someone who has capabilities that you do not.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 15, 2008 15:21 UTC (Sat) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] Gamers and overclockers "fix" the video cards all the time, by modifying the clock signal or doing other things in hardware. Audiophiles too. And don't get me started on car enthusiasts...
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 16, 2008 6:31 UTC (Sun) by JohnNilsson (subscriber, #41242) [Link] Radio transmitters, such as wireless network adapters, are generally not legal to tamper with. Hardware implementing a DRM-scheme are not legal to modify to circumvent the DRM part. (Or rather the tampering is legal but certain actions in association to it would be prohibited. Removing DRM as a service would be illegal f.ex.)
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 18:07 UTC (Tue) by mmarsh (subscriber, #17029) [Link] What Bruce Byfield writes is true more of GNU than of Linux, isn't it? My understanding was that Linus has been and continues to be less of an idealogue and more of a pragmatist.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 18:37 UTC (Tue) by felixrabe (subscriber, #50514) [Link] For me it's all the same. I get way less frustrated with computers in real life if I know that I could (at least theoretically, given some time) change their stupid behavior. The freedoms that Stallman fights for are very pragmatical to me for this very reason.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 19:04 UTC (Tue) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] Yes, "pragmatism" is such a derogatory condescending term. Its use always implies that the rest of the world everyone (who was not covered by the label) is unrealistic. The word inherently involves a value judgment but pretends to be neutral; it can never be used without bashing the other side and really should just be avoided since it conveys nothing of real value (except for the bashing.) The above statement is not meant to imply any form of Linus vs. Stallman comparison. Both men have great valuable opinions (both are idealists!) from which I have learned a lot, neither which I agree with either 100% (should anyone?) Both have accomplished great things for the free software users.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 19:18 UTC (Tue) by mmarsh (subscriber, #17029) [Link] That's certainly not the way I use "pragmatism." An ideological "purity" has its value, and certainly provides a (generally) long-term goal. Many pragmatists are idealistic, and many idealists are pragmatic. It's more a question of which motivates you more on a day-to-day basis.
Self-labeled pragmatists aren't really pragmatic Posted Mar 11, 2008 19:21 UTC (Tue) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] Someone who labels himself as a "pragmatist" is saying that he rejects certain things as "ideals", and their proponents as "idealists". But eventually the so-called pragmatist gets hit with the fact that his graphics card isn't going to work any more, he can't do business with the software he's paid for because its provider is gone and there's no source, etc.So, a "pragmatist" is really just a person who can't see a far enough horizon to properly protect himself and his business. Bruce
Self-labeled pragmatists aren't really pragmatic Posted Mar 11, 2008 19:29 UTC (Tue) by mmarsh (subscriber, #17029) [Link] I think you're painting with too broad a brush. While it's true that many people with an "I just want it to work today, dammit!" attitude identify themselves as pragmatists, others who consider themselves pragmatists choose to fight the battles today that make (to them) the most sense to fight today. The GNU project didn't replace an entire OS all at once, it replaced bits and pieces as possible. That's a pragmatic approach, and a good example of one that's ideologically driven.
Self-labeled pragmatists aren't really pragmatic Posted Mar 12, 2008 2:10 UTC (Wed) by BrucePerens (guest, #2510) [Link] But the GNU folks you are describing would not call themselves pragmatists.
Self-labeled pragmatists aren't really pragmatic Posted Mar 12, 2008 2:16 UTC (Wed) by mmarsh (subscriber, #17029) [Link] Granted, but my point is there's a spectrum. People who describe themselves as idealists can be pragmatic, and people who describe themselves as pragmatists can be idealistic. Saying that self-described pragmatists are, to a person, interested in expedience at the expense of principle or short-term benefit at the expense of long-term good is unfair and untrue.
Self-labeled pragmatists aren't really pragmatic Posted Mar 12, 2008 6:41 UTC (Wed) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link] Actually, in this regard, I believe (and no, I'm not pretending to speak for him, I'd definitely welcome his correction if I'm incorrect in this belief) Stallman would call himself just that, pragmatic. From that material I've read, he has in fact actually pointed out from time to time that at one point he /did/ in fact use a non-free OS, but that he now sees no need to do so, and therefore does not do so, as all the necessary parts are there to run a free one, even if it entails a bit of taking the longer view over immediate comfort or gain, in some areas. That's probably why the OS libraries exception is there, after all. It reflects a pragmatic viewpoint in that it was and in some cases remains difficult to implement free(dom) software without such dependencies. Similarly with the pragmatism (tho toward an ultimate goal, no argument) evidenced in the LGPL, and also the GCC license exceptions. He just makes it a point to never lose sight of the ultimate goal, software freedom everywhere, and to promote that as effectively as he believes he possibly can at every turn, regardless of whether that means "unbending idealism" or "pragmatism" in an individual case. I certainly respect him for that, tho I too, don't agree with him in all cases (like the GNU/Linux thing). It's worth noting, however, that I agree with him enough to have chosen as my sig in many contexts a quote of his (as noted elsewhere in the replies), to the effect that every non-free program has a master, and if you use the program, you are letting him be /your/ master as well. Duncan
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 11, 2008 19:37 UTC (Tue) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] >What Bruce Byfield writes is true more of GNU than of Linux, isn't it? What the lwn introduces as "Linux" is the "GNU/Linux" that Byfield discusses. AFAICT, Byfield does not mention the Linux kernel. >My understanding was that Linus has been and continues to be less of an idealogue and more of a pragmatist. I suppose, but I do not see the connection to the article.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 12, 2008 6:27 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] Linus just does the kernel, which is only a small (though vital) part of a distribution. The people who put together Debian or Fedora are highly motivated by freedom issues.And even Linus has no interest in helping you get your proprietary nVidia or ATI driver to work.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 13, 2008 7:01 UTC (Thu) by Darkwing (guest, #51043) [Link] In many ways I agree with Byfield that the fight for Linux/GNU should be for free software (as in free speech). However, I often wonder how the fact that I'm using nVidia's driver is hurting that fight? I could use the open/free driver but as I see it the only consequence of that would be that I wouldn't be able to run certain 3D application. No winners and one looser (me). I don't have the technical skills to modify and improve the open/free driver so from my point of view it doesn't really matter which driver I'm using with regard to the progress of free software.
GNU/Linux World Domination for the Wrong Reasons (Datamation) Posted Mar 14, 2008 9:16 UTC (Fri) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link] It hurts indirectly. If running 3D-applications has importance to you, and you can't do that using Nvidia and free drivers, you're sligthly more likely to -not- buy Nvidia graphics-cards the next time around. If the lack of free drivers impact sales negatively for Nvidia, or conversely; if the availability of free drivers impact sales positively for their more open competitors, this provides market-pressure in the direction of more free drivers. If you use the proprietary driver, you're also less likely to contribute to the free driver in ways other than coding; say by testing it, by contributing bug-reports or similar. If the proprietary solution works well enough for your daily needs, you're less likely to spend time and energy on alternatives.
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