RAND !== F/OSS compatible [LWN.net]

RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 21, 2008 17:43 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330)
In reply to: RAND !== F/OSS compatible by leoc
Parent article: Microsoft announces changes to promote interoperability

No, it isn't good news all around.

The terms you quote are incompatible with the GPL, both versions 2 and 3.

From GPL v2 (where I flagged the relevant clause with italics):

7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

And it's not just the GPL: the idea that any commercial distributor would need a patent license contradicts the DFSG (and therefore the OSI definition of open source).

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RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 21, 2008 18:05 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Most of Microsoft's patents should be trivial to code around. Like any other program there is
a ten thousand and one ways to skin the cat.

For stuff that can't be coded around all you need to have is for a program to have a exception
in it's license allowing you to use those specific plug-ins that would be made compatible with
Microsoft's patented API requirements thus working around the issue in a legal fashion.

This is morally acceptable because.. one; the person using the plugin stuff would already be
running a lot of proprietary code in the form of Microsoft software with it's own costs and
issues so it won't be adding any additional restrictions on those people that didn't already
exist.. and two; because that sort of thing will be mostly used by people trying to gradually
migrate away from proprietary software or introduce more free software into their businesses.

RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 21, 2008 21:07 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

It may not be easy to code around Microsoft's patents when they are determining the protocols,
and hence the detailed functionality, that your software must implement.

RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 21, 2008 23:54 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

Samba has done that. So you have precedence. At least thats what they are saying they are
doing and that most Microsoft patents are not that good.

Of course for patents for protocols that you can't code around you'll have to setup some sort
of proxy, translator, emulation, or plugin system that is under a compatible license that can
be a buffer between OSS and Microsoft's patents.

RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 22, 2008 6:21 UTC (Fri) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]

It feels that 'patents that cover protocols' are supposed to cover the protocols themselves,
and as such, it should be impossible to work around them without deviating from the protocols
by definition. An example of such a patent would probably show the real deal here.

RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 22, 2008 15:01 UTC (Fri) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

>This is morally acceptable 
What's badly needed is an overarching theory of 'moral'.
I track the GPL well in a common-sense mode, and for that reason wouldn't touch MS's license
cocaine with a 10-foot wookie.
Arguments based upon 'moral' get squishy very quickly, and lead to much strife, ironically.

RAND !== F/OSS compatible

Posted Feb 22, 2008 15:38 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

It's because it's human concepts and ideals that dictate morals and ethics and those change
based on who you are talking to. My moral code is obviously going to be different then your's
and most everybody else's. In life there are very very few things that do not quickly become
'squishy'.

It's probably why so many people here like programming.. It's something that has absolution.
There is a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way. When it is 'right' it works, and when it does not
then it's wrong. It's very simple, it's testable, and generally there is a hard line on
correctness. 

There are very very few other areas in society that can be that.. obvious between right and
wrong. When ever software touches those other parts of human life (business, law, human
interfaces) then it can't help but become 'squishy'.


In my eyes extracting the maximum amount of freedom while working around the limitations of
living in a modern government-controlled society is a very good thing that a software project
can do. Except when it becomes appropriate to break those laws in acts of civil disobedience
which then is 'more ethical'.

So providing MS-patent-compatible open software (as open as is allowed by MS) that is designed
with the expressed goal of allowing people to use more truly free software in a practical
real-world environment is a good thing as long as that sort of software is kept to a minimum.
Of course this is only good approach when those patents can't be otherwise worked around.