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Microsoft announces changes to promote interoperability
The announcement is sweeping enough to make one check the calendar, but we are still a month and a week early for pranks. Microsoft is making available specifications for APIs and communication protocols for Exchange, Office, SQL Server, SharePoint, and others without requiring a license or royalty payments. They will indicate what patents they believe cover any of the protocols and "will license all of these patents on reasonable and non-discriminatory terms, at low royalty rates." There may be lurking dangers, but it appears to be a sincere effort at providing interoperability. "'Customers need all their vendors, including and especially Microsoft, to deliver software and services that are flexible enough such that any developer can use their open interfaces and data to effectively integrate applications or to compose entirely new solutions,' said Ozzie. 'By increasing the openness of our products, we will provide developers additional opportunity to innovate and deliver value for customers.'"
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RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 17:20 UTC (Thu) by kirkengaard (subscriber, #15022) [Link] No license agreement, no royalty for the API spec, but the patents to be licensed so that you can use the APIs are RAND with "low royalty rates" -- consider the possible distribution spread of F/OSS using code developed under patent-cloud, and the royalties applicable across it.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 17:23 UTC (Thu) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link] It also says:
Microsoft is providing a covenant not to sue open source developers for development or non-commercial distribution of implementations of these protocols. These developers will be able to use the documentation for free to develop products. Companies that engage in commercial distribution of these protocol implementations will be able to obtain a patent license from Microsoft, as will enterprises that obtain these implementations from a distributor that does not have such a patent license. I hate to sound optimistic, but this appears to be good news all around.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 17:41 UTC (Thu) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] You must be sarcastic.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 17:43 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] No, it isn't good news all around.The terms you quote are incompatible with the GPL, both versions 2 and 3. From GPL v2 (where I flagged the relevant clause with italics): 7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.And it's not just the GPL: the idea that any commercial distributor would need a patent license contradicts the DFSG (and therefore the OSI definition of open source).
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 18:05 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Most of Microsoft's patents should be trivial to code around. Like any other program there is a ten thousand and one ways to skin the cat. For stuff that can't be coded around all you need to have is for a program to have a exception in it's license allowing you to use those specific plug-ins that would be made compatible with Microsoft's patented API requirements thus working around the issue in a legal fashion. This is morally acceptable because.. one; the person using the plugin stuff would already be running a lot of proprietary code in the form of Microsoft software with it's own costs and issues so it won't be adding any additional restrictions on those people that didn't already exist.. and two; because that sort of thing will be mostly used by people trying to gradually migrate away from proprietary software or introduce more free software into their businesses.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 21:07 UTC (Thu) by roc (guest, #30627) [Link] It may not be easy to code around Microsoft's patents when they are determining the protocols, and hence the detailed functionality, that your software must implement.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 23:54 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Samba has done that. So you have precedence. At least thats what they are saying they are doing and that most Microsoft patents are not that good. Of course for patents for protocols that you can't code around you'll have to setup some sort of proxy, translator, emulation, or plugin system that is under a compatible license that can be a buffer between OSS and Microsoft's patents.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 22, 2008 6:21 UTC (Fri) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link] It feels that 'patents that cover protocols' are supposed to cover the protocols themselves, and as such, it should be impossible to work around them without deviating from the protocols by definition. An example of such a patent would probably show the real deal here.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 22, 2008 15:01 UTC (Fri) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link] >This is morally acceptable What's badly needed is an overarching theory of 'moral'. I track the GPL well in a common-sense mode, and for that reason wouldn't touch MS's license cocaine with a 10-foot wookie. Arguments based upon 'moral' get squishy very quickly, and lead to much strife, ironically.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 22, 2008 15:38 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] It's because it's human concepts and ideals that dictate morals and ethics and those change based on who you are talking to. My moral code is obviously going to be different then your's and most everybody else's. In life there are very very few things that do not quickly become 'squishy'. It's probably why so many people here like programming.. It's something that has absolution. There is a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way. When it is 'right' it works, and when it does not then it's wrong. It's very simple, it's testable, and generally there is a hard line on correctness. There are very very few other areas in society that can be that.. obvious between right and wrong. When ever software touches those other parts of human life (business, law, human interfaces) then it can't help but become 'squishy'. In my eyes extracting the maximum amount of freedom while working around the limitations of living in a modern government-controlled society is a very good thing that a software project can do. Except when it becomes appropriate to break those laws in acts of civil disobedience which then is 'more ethical'. So providing MS-patent-compatible open software (as open as is allowed by MS) that is designed with the expressed goal of allowing people to use more truly free software in a practical real-world environment is a good thing as long as that sort of software is kept to a minimum. Of course this is only good approach when those patents can't be otherwise worked around.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 20:15 UTC (Thu) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link] You are totally correct, and I hereby rescind my expression of all around goodness, and would like to apologize to everyone for being way too optimistic.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 17:47 UTC (Thu) by thoffman (subscriber, #3063) [Link] I would like to be optimistic, but decades of history of Microsoft's actions make me cynical. The problem is, what does "non-commercial distribution" mean? I suspect in practice it will mean that Microsoft will want payment for every installation of (just for example) Red Hat Enterprise, as that is a "commercial distribution". Microsoft might even define "commercial distribution" to cover Fedora and Ubuntu, since Red Hat and Canonical both are for-profit companies. In short, the "covenant not to sue" seems very suspicious unless it covers all open source code regardless of (a) how it is distributed, and (b) who is "behind" the distribution.
RAND !== F/OSS compatible appears to be good news ... Posted Feb 21, 2008 18:03 UTC (Thu) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link] "... engage in commercial distribution ..." That would include Red Hat, Ubuntu, [whatever Mandrake calls itself now], etc. Essentially, all those that refused to buy into the previous promise not to be sued. Sorry, same drivel in new look packaging. What's the cliché on slashdot? "Nothing new here, move on!"
RAND !== F/OSS compatible Posted Feb 21, 2008 19:11 UTC (Thu) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Right - microsoft will agree not to sue the hobbyist working in isolation, but they will expect and insist on royalty payments for any attempt to use this for anything meaningful. Hard to see how this could be interpreted as anything but a cynical and self serving gesture from microsoft.
Well, it's significantly better than nothing Posted Feb 21, 2008 19:33 UTC (Thu) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] While the terms won't satisfy everybody's requirements, they're clearly ad advance over what Microsoft permitted/provided before. And the part about declaring what patents bear on what APIs/protocols seems like a very useful bit of information to give the community, since it tells you just what you need to work around. scott
Microsoft announces changes to promote interoperability Posted Feb 21, 2008 18:14 UTC (Thu) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link] Sorry, here is another reason to doubt MS's sincerity. The vote for OOXML comes up shortly with no time to understand what MS is really offering. Sounds good, however, the reality may be far short of the implied promise. http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?s...
I'm FED UP Posted Feb 21, 2008 21:42 UTC (Thu) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link] Warning: I'm about to vent loudly in this post. <FRUSTRATED RANT> Microsoft, you've been blowing this bull***t up our skirts for long enough. Stop talking the talk, and start walking the walk. Enough already! If you're going to issue license covenants and promise industry standards compliance, then just DO IT AND STOP MAKING ALL THESE SILLY ANNOUNCEMENTS!! If you really want to earn the respect of the open-source community, then it's high time you stopped "crying wolf" and start taking real, substantial action - we're tuning you out these days. Oh, and by the way, if you're going to make announcements like these, then consider not funneling money to SCO - it totally ruins your credibility. </ FRUSTRATED RANT> I feel somewhat relieved now. I wonder if throwing chairs around the office would make me feel any better?
NTFS? Posted Feb 21, 2008 23:24 UTC (Thu) by szaka (subscriber, #12740) [Link] Apparently still no NTFS. The journal format is not fully known which is causing a lot of headaches for users who would like to interoperate.
Microsoft announces changes to promote interoperability Posted Feb 22, 2008 11:07 UTC (Fri) by alextingle (subscriber, #20593) [Link] This is good news. Microsoft hasn't changed its policy on patent licensing, but that shouldn't obscure the big shift in its attitude to documentation and openness. OpenOffice and AbiWord and the rest are infringing no more patents today than they were yesterday. This is a huge win for the activists who have long argued that closed formats are bad for users. Microsoft's government and corporate customers are starting to listen to this argument, and Microsoft clearly thinks there's a risk that it will lose market share as a result. These formats were never intended to be documented - they've evolved organically over many years. To document them now must be hugely costly (and tedious). Microsoft would only consider such an expense if they really felt that their business position were threatened.
Costly? Tedious? Ha! Posted Feb 22, 2008 13:37 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Please read this. Do you really think it's costly or tedious to transfer comment "if the 1904 date system is used" from code to documentation? It'll be really costly and tedious if they wanted to write comprehensive guide for implementors - but that's not what they did at all...
Microsoft announces changes to promote interoperability Posted Feb 22, 2008 14:38 UTC (Fri) by Seegras (guest, #20463) [Link] > This is a huge win for the activists who have long argued that closed > formats are bad for users. Microsoft's government and corporate customers > are starting to listen to this argument, and Microsoft clearly thinks > here's a risk that it will lose market share as a result. Actually, those specs are the best argument why you should not use those formats at all. Some enlightening comments can be found here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/02/19.html
Ballmer quote says it all Posted Feb 22, 2008 14:33 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] STEVE BALLMER: Patents will be, not freely, will be available. BRAD SMITH: Readily available. STEVE BALLMER: Readily available for the right fee. The basic economic analysis that you should go through sort of goes like this. We have valuable intellectual property in our patents, we will continue to view that as valuable intellectual property in all forms, and we will monetize from all users of that, not all developers, but for all users of that patented technology, all commercial developers, and all commercial users of that patented technology. I put this in my blog: MS patents make a no-op of their latest interop announcement
Going for the most cynical reading award... Posted Feb 22, 2008 15:01 UTC (Fri) by justme (guest, #19967) [Link] So, at times like this, I always ask "what exactly is MS up to?" Others have mentioned that this puts GPL code at a disadvantage wrt patents, since you could imagine other licenses that take advantage of their "non-commercial distribution" language. Code under such a license would be GPL-incompatible, of course. Then there's the ever-popular "poison pill" element, where anyone who codes to their API has to demonstrate that they clean-room reverse-engineered it or MS will make patent claims. The fact that the claims are spurious only helps if you have the resources to survive the legal battle. MS is also hoping for some free labor, hoping that we will go building and maintaining libraries for them that tie Exchange or Active Directory into open-source-dominated environments. They figure (likely correctly in the case of Novell, Sun, and Oracle) that someone will be ready to pay their royalties in order to use this code in the enterprise. Not only do they get the royalties, this relieves the tension that might pull these clients away from MS tools. Then there's devices. Hardware manufacturers can now be convinced that there is a way to involve MS software in their devices without the heft of Windows (again, MS is even hoping that the community will be kind enough to provide the glue for free). In general, they are trying to find a way to play in our world on their terms. There's consolation in the fact that they now consider this necessary, and that they consider it risky enough that they hesitated to do it until the EU judgment forced their hand. After all, even with all the opporunities it gives them to muck things up, this does increase the exposure of their markets to open source.
Going for the most cynical reading award... Posted Feb 22, 2008 16:44 UTC (Fri) by dwheeler (subscriber, #1216) [Link] "anyone who codes to their API has to demonstrate that they clean-room reverse-engineered it or MS will make patent claims."Clean-room efforts have no effect on patents, and wouldn't help you. That's one of the reasons patents are insane for software; even if patents were only granted for truly new software ideas (something no patent system has even approached), and even if you did your best to not infringe, you'd still infringe. In fact, you could release code that didn't infringe a published patent (because the patent review was in process), and when the patent is published, you're suddenly liable (and you probably won't find out for years). If there were only a few patents a year that could apply to a program, you might still have a chance, but a typical system has millions of lines of code, and there are an absurd number of software patents.
Going for the most cynical reading award... Posted Feb 22, 2008 17:16 UTC (Fri) by justme (guest, #19967) [Link] I stand corrected. So MS releasing its trade secrets creates no *new* poison pill; it was already there. It's amazing how software can simultaneously enjoy the protections of a trade secret, a publically available patented invention, a submarine patent application, a published copyrighted implementation, and now with DMCA a legally unbreakable encrypted blob all at the same time. Of course, Gates knew this when he lobbied for extending these protections to software decades ago...
Going for the most cynical reading award... Posted Feb 22, 2008 19:50 UTC (Fri) by dwheeler (subscriber, #1216) [Link] To be fair, Gates was against software patents many years ago, and publicly said so. At this point, I don't know if Microsoft has an official position. They probably view government market interference (in the form of software patents) as bad, but the only way they can prevent competition. If true competition were permitted, it would interfere with their 80-90% profit margins :-).
... being very cynical indeed Posted Feb 22, 2008 23:46 UTC (Fri) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] My impression is that Microsoft the software developer is not in favour of Software patents, since for anyone doing programming they represent at best a legal minefield. However, Microsoft has a large legal department, which gets to draft all its license agreements, and to make public statements about Microsoft policy. For such a department Software patents are an empire building opportunity, each new threat must be countered by hiring more lawyers, who report to Microsoft's head attorney, making him more important and powerful (and perhaps richer too). He has personally and in his role at Microsoft expressed strong support for such patents and for any other expansion in "intellectual property" using a variation of the broken window fallacy to justify them as economically positive. With Ballmer in control rather than Gates I'd say the emphasis on software development is over, and Microsoft has matured into a more typical company where the executives have a very limited grip on the nature of the company's core activities. Such a company is much more likely to use Software patents as a weapon, but correspondingly less likely to be able use this threat effectively. Actual patent lawsuits from Redmond would be a sign of weakness and should elicit cheers from everyone in the Free Software camp except the people whose doormats they actually land on.
Going for the most cynical reading award... Posted Feb 23, 2008 21:20 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] I think it was more accurate to view BG's viewpoint as (paraphrasing, of course): "If people knew then what they know now about software and patents then they could of shutdown software development as we currently know it. There is a distinct chance that a software company can patent something fundamental about software and we would be at their mercy. Therefore we need to get as many patents as possible." That was more or less what was said in a 1991 'Challenges and Strategy' memo BG sent out to the rest of the corporation. You can find the full text at: http://www.bralyn.net/etext/literature/bill.gates/challen... And see exactly what he said. The relevent text is about 2/3rds toward the bottom in the "Catagory 3" section. The thing about software vs other industry is the low overhead of praticipation. With the automobile industry, for example, you need to have millions ontop of millions of dollars in up front expenses to produce a car. You need to obtain suppliers, third party distributers, entire manufacturing plants, engineers, lawyers, artists, assembly line workers, etc etc. With software all you need to write industry software is intellegence and a PC. Your looking at 1/10000th the expense of praticipation. And OSS's goal in life is to make it cheaper, easier, to make software. A decade ago the cost to obtain enterprise-level development environment would be much more the cost of any computer. Now though you can get the source code to entire operating systems and some of the best development tools in the world for Free, all you need is a fast internet connection. So for a large software company this puts you in a very vunerable position, long term. Novell, SCO, Microsoft, etc etc, this does not matter. A small, very smart, and very agressive company with only a few hundred employees would be able to take any one of those companies out, theoreticly. So with software patents, since they cost so much in terms of overhead to obtain and patent agreements with other large software companies; this provides a very strong buffer against competition from small companies. So with a company in Microsoft's position you have no choice but to be on the side of software patents, even though you regularly get nailed by them to the tune of several million dollars every year by patent trolls. Your investors will not let you do anything else. They are the ones in control and you have no choice but to cater to them. The ultimate danger though is to the entire U.S.A. software industry. Smaller countries just now entering into the 'information technology' era will probably realise that software patents are a barrier to them and thus refuse to support them. Without the legal overhead these countries will be able to let their own companies do software development without these limitations. Once these companies get bigger then they would be able to go into the USA and other software patent-friendly countries and just start using their own innovations to get thousands of patents which they would use to attack companies like Microsoft, furthur limiting their ability to compete. They wouldn't even have to do it with their own legal teams... There are lots of patent troll corporations that would be happy to get their hands on a bunch of new software patents to begin extracting licensing fees from rich software companies on some foreign company's behalf.
Microsoft announces changes to promote interoperability Posted Mar 6, 2008 20:45 UTC (Thu) by BackSeat (subscriber, #1886) [Link] One of Microsoft's achievements with such announcements is to dilute the value and meaning of (our interpretation of) "open" and "openness". The more the term is bandied around, the less it means. Like the penchant for prefixing any word with "e-" a decade ago, it becomes meaningless.
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