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Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games
Hi folks, I hate for my first post to this mailing list to be a depressing one, but I need to pass along some bad news. Due to patent concerns, we won't be able to include any games in Fedora which meet the following criteria: A game where "targets" move across the screen to a predetermined point or line, where the player hits a button/key/mouse click as the target(s) crosses that point or line, and gets points. This means: No "Guitar Hero" clones. No "Dance Dance Revolution" clones. I need your help to make sure that we don't have any other games that meet this criteria, either on the wish list or in Fedora. If you're not sure, ask me. Thanks in advance, ~spot (Log in to post comments)
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 16:47 UTC (Fri) by Jel (guest, #22988) [Link] Huh? This would apply to every game with sights on screen. Wing Commander, Duck shoot, Operation Wolf... surely the patent claim can't be old enough to avoid prior art? Even if it was... getting points in games for doing the default action at the predetermined point/position of a target probably goes back to the first games ever played -- I mean, millenia ago, not the first computer games. It's ridiculous. Fedora should have the guts to stand up to stuff like this.
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 18:40 UTC (Fri) by skvidal (subscriber, #3094) [Link] You realize it is not about 'guts' right? It's about not getting sued into oblivion over a game patent. You can have all the courage in the world it does not mean that you: 1. are on the right side of the law 2. have an infinite amount of money to spend on fighting the suit -sv
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 16:49 UTC (Fri) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] These are all just modern variations of the "Simon Says" game I remember playing as a kid.
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 18:50 UTC (Fri) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] Space invaders clearly meets the description, and I thimk it could be argued that pong also meets the description.
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 18:55 UTC (Fri) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] However, as usual with software patents, some excerpt of the patent probably doesn't accurately describe it. http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2008/01/msg00158.html
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 19:20 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] It sounds like the Fedora people must be thinking about an additional patent. The patent Miriam Ruiz is pointing to is specific to games where the player has to be in sync with a musical piece. But I assume this language about doing something based on something crossing a point or line must come from somewhere; I don't see it in the patent claims.
That's a different patent Posted Jan 18, 2008 22:02 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] It's clear from the fedora-games-list thread that it is a different patent that Red Hat is concerned about. The one you point to would also be infringed by a DDR clone, but apparently there's a much more general patent. Tom Calloway doesn't give the number of the patent, though.
patent number Posted Jan 18, 2008 22:30 UTC (Fri) by scottt (subscriber, #5028) [Link] In a later post, he does: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.games/571 > The primary patent of concern is US 6347998, held by Konami.
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 18, 2008 19:42 UTC (Fri) by AJWM (guest, #15888) [Link] No, neither of them meet that description. Space invader is a shooting game, where there's no fixed point or line that the target has to be on when you click. Pong might actually be closer, except that there's no clicking involved at all, just moving the paddle to where the ball (target) will hit it and bounce. The closest thing that comes to mind to that description is the targeting computer sequence in the original Star Wars movie. The two lines converged on the target spot and you're supposed to pull the trigger when they intersect. Might be interesting to program a game to duplicate that sequence and see who sues you first, these patent holders or Lucasfilm (for copyright infringement). Of course as with any patent, the real devil is in the details of the claims, not whatever is in the summary, let alone what somebody else's description of the summary is.
Starwars game Posted Jan 18, 2008 23:56 UTC (Fri) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] I recall playing an old arcade video game based on the part of starwars you mention. Back in 1985 or so with vector graphics.
Starwars game Posted Jan 19, 2008 18:45 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] There are hundreds of games that deal with lines and pointing and shooting. Even going back to the earliest times in video games. There is a whole class of games were you control a target or crosshairs or whatever that goes along several lines that stream from either a point in the middle or from the top of the screen. You hop from one line to another and alternatively dodge or shoot items or aliens or whatever that go along those line. The grand-daddy is 'Tempest' one of the 'high-tech'-looking vector-based graphic games from the early 1980's. This one was one of the first, released in 1981. You may not recognize the name, but the game is instantly recognizable by almost anybody. Anyways. IMO (I am not a lawyer) none of these games infringe on this patent. It's impossible for them to do so. The 'summary' is the Abstract. The abstract is completely irrelevent, it's only there to give a better idea what the claims are talking about. The claims in the patent is were the rubber meets the road. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6347998-claims.html In the first paragraph of the first claim: > an input apparatus which is manipulated by a player; With games like pydance there is no apparatus. It's just software. Fedora is not distributing any keyboard, any joystick, or any other form of "input apparatus". Anyways the patents are talking about a 'game system'. Software is not a 'game system', I would think. The way it seems is that this patent could never go into effect unless the software is distributed as part of a larger gaming system, ie hardware. Something that is purposely designed to play these sort of games. I could understand Fedora not including these games as part as the default install in order to be nice to system integrators that may want to use Fedora to sell gaming PCs or something like that, but otherwise it seems impossible for pydance to infringe on this paticular patent.
Starwars game Posted Jan 21, 2008 0:00 UTC (Mon) by jamesh (subscriber, #1159) [Link] > The way it seems is that this patent could never go into effect unless > the software is distributed as part of a larger gaming system, ie > hardware. This just passes the problem on to people who want to ship hardware with Fedora or Red Hat pre-installed. I am sure they don't want to push the message that Fedora is free to use as long as you don't install it on hardware.
bombardier? Posted Jan 18, 2008 23:12 UTC (Fri) by bajw (guest, #11712) [Link] Isn't the GNU Bombing Utility viable prior art?
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 20, 2008 7:39 UTC (Sun) by russell (subscriber, #10458) [Link] There are so many patents out there that Fedora shouldn't be able to ship anything. Why then do they ignore all those others but not this one? There must be more too it that's not being reported. Is someone threating to sue using this particular patent?
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 20, 2008 8:30 UTC (Sun) by michich (subscriber, #17902) [Link] Tom "spot" Callaway answered a similar question in the thread:The owner of this particular patent is aggressively licensing it to other people, so they see a huge value in it, and would likely go out of their way to defend its use (especially against an entity with plenty of money in the bank).
How about blocking it in USA+Japan only Posted Jan 20, 2008 16:02 UTC (Sun) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] How about putting pydance into a special "patent risk" repository and telling people in the USA and Japan about the possible patent problems and let the rest of the world continue to use those packages? People in the USA and Japan could still use the packages at their own risk.
How about blocking it in USA+Japan only Posted Jan 20, 2008 21:02 UTC (Sun) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] This is a very very good idea, someone should do it. (Maybe livna is it, though?) But then someone should go further and distribute Linux distros outside the US and Japan with those repositories preconfigured.
How about blocking it in USA+Japan only Posted Jan 21, 2008 6:22 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] It's the same thing that Debian did for cryptography and the non-us repositories. It works. It allows people to still use the software and at the same time make it painfully clear _why_ they are doing this. Lots of software is technically illegal in the USA due to our asinine laws. Libdvdcss libs, mp3 playback, mpeg video support, etc etc etc. Naming it 'illegal-in-usa' or whatnot points out the _real_ reason why Fedora can't officially support that software.
How about blocking it in USA+Japan only Posted Jan 24, 2008 20:38 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] Because Fedora would be guilty of encouraging its use, or some such.
Fedora blocking patent-encumbered games Posted Jan 23, 2008 21:19 UTC (Wed) by zurpher (guest, #50088) [Link] On the topic of prior art. Epyx published a game cartridge for the VIC-20 called "Fun With Music" in 1983. You had to hit the proper "note" key as the musical notes scrolled across the top of the screen on musical staves. Notes came in from the right and scrolled off the left. Note order and timing were enforced by a target area. There may have been a joystick interface. The early shareware program "Shooting Gallery" by Nels Anderson (1990) seems like another example. Mouse was used to move a crosshair over various targets. Clicking the mouse shot at the targets as they passed under the crosshair. The targets moved in rows from one side of the screen to the other. You just had to click your mouse as they passed underneath. I also remember various typing tutor games in which you had to press the proper key as the letters fell or rolled across the screen. Often there were target areas.
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