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OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

TMCnet covers comments by Nicholas Negroponte about dual-booting the OLPC. "Negroponte told IDG News Service that OLPC working with Microsoft very closely to make a dual-boot system so that, like on an Apple, you can boot either one up. “The version that’s up and running of Windows on the XO is very fast, it's very, very successful,” Negroponte said. “We're working very hard to do both.” He pointed out that this is a brand-new development for the XO laptops, as the low-cost notebooks are known, and came about because of Microsoft’s friendlier attitude toward open source software."
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OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 20:10 UTC (Thu) by cpm (guest, #3554) [Link]

I'm just not all that sure how one can be 'working very hard to do
both'.

Seems to me, if one is working very hard to put MS Windows OS onto
a project, it's being done at the expense of working very hard to
enable broadscale linux deployment. In fact, I would expect one could
argue with some confidence, that is exactly the point.


"Working very hard ..."

Posted Jan 10, 2008 21:20 UTC (Thu) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]

Naturally we can criticize this choice of words.

I remember one Microsoft technical presentation I attended over a decade ago where I lost
count of the number of times the speaker (a high to mid-level development manager for
Microsoft) used phrases like: "we're focusing on ..." and "our focus is on ..."

It wasn't merely that I lost count of the variations and repetitions of that phrase.  It was
that I noted the irony that objects of his "focus" were so varied.

The unintended theme of his talk, as it emerged from this distracting verbal tic was that
Microsof was (at the time) focused on everything. It was a thousand, nay a million razor sharp
laser beams of focus.

Naturally to mere mortals such as me this would seem to be lead to rather diffused, even
blurred results.

Of course the cynics and critics among us know that Microsoft's true focus has been on
dominance of the mainstream, commodity computing marketplace.  Their goal as been nothing less
than global control over design, manufacture and distribution of as broad a range of general
purpose computing devices as they could.

This has not been achieved by technical excellence.  They have excelled at shipping products
that are "good enough."  Because the road to marketplace dominance is figuratively a matter of
firepower.

It may seem crude to draw on an analogy from military history --- but Microsoft has repeatedly
demonstrated that their attitude towards business competition is a "take-no-prisoners"
engagement in economic warfare.  It is notable that the introduction of firearms in warfare
rapidly lead to the discovery that the single most important element of success shifted from
individual prowess to numbers --- and supply lines; the victor is the one who can send the
majority of bullets and shrapnel hurtling at the enemy --- and supply their front lines with
the ammo to do that.  Tactics are not irrelevant --- they have to be "good enough."  However,
the importance of individual valor, and tactical superiority was no longer tantamount). (Don't
get me wrong, either --- logistics weren't irrelevant in medieval warfare ... but they took a
back seat to training, discipline and individual mastery at arms).

So, we see that Microsoft's focus continues to be on control of the market.  They cannot allow
the enemy (not a competitor ... their culture internalizes any competitor as the enemy) ...
they cannot allow the enemy to gain ground and become entrenched in the emerging markets
surrounding their territory.

I've seen endless press about how it seems like Microsoft is quibbling over these
insignificant markets ... and how they might be scared of some ripple back effect on their
core (first world, industrialized) market.

However we must keep in mind that "investor value" (stock prices ... the primary legal
responsibility of any publicly traded company) is all about future growth potential.  The
stock market doesn't care how much money you made last year --- only about how that portends
towards your future earnings.  When you own 80 or 90% of an existing market then your growth
opportunities within that market are limited to the expansion of that market as a whole ...
and to minor additional gains in market share.  So those companies which dominate in one
market have an imperative to seek new markets.  That is their fiscal responsibility to their
shareholders. (Philosophically we can lament that ethical, ecological and other considerations
are given such low priority in these matters; but it is ignorant not to recognize the stark
reality of the Western economy).

So, Microsoft has to work hard on the XO ... they have to work hard on worming their way into
your cell phone ... they have to find new niches into which to grow.  In fact they arguably
have to work harder on that than on new product releases in their existing strongholds.
(Those just have to be "good enough" to maintain the status quo and provide upgrade driven
revenue).

As for Negroponte, he can honestly say that he is working hard with Microsoft.  That doesn't
mean that he is diverting other resources away from the existing open source based work.  Far
from it.  It can simply mean that he is working hard on the negotiations --- pressing them to
devote their considerable resources (and using their emnity towards free software as a key
bargaining chip).

I don't begrudge him nor the OLPC project at large, any of the concessions they get from
Microsoft.  Naturally I would offer caveats.  Microsoft will take any opportunity to chew them
up and spit them out.  (I don't know if Novell suffered in any significant way from the
gnashing of teeth over their "covenants"  last year --- but they certainly lost quite a bit of
community support).  I hope, and suspect, that Negroponte is well aware of the risks.

Free software purists will rail and complain.  However OLPC is not about promoting free
software for its own sake.  It's about making modern computing and communications available to
a new generation of billions of kids --- and the hope that this will open up opportunities far
greater than their parents were ever able to hope for.

Yes, we know that Microsoft wants to worm its way in, and slip shackles on  these kids.  I'm
sure Negroponte will strive to ensure that the CHOICE is always there.  Let OLPC run MS
Windows ... perhaps not this year ... but when Moore's Law spins the cost and size/power
constraints down another notch.  Ultimately I will be far happier with an OLPC that runs open
source software because it is the BEST choice  than I would with one that offered no other
option.

Anyway, it's not an either-or proposition.  The phrase "working hard" is not amenable to
simple arithmetic calculations.

JimD


OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 20:22 UTC (Thu) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

Extra flash to store both OS's.  Probably extra RAM.  Even if MS gives Windows away for free,
how is this going to make the XO more affordable?

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 20:25 UTC (Thu) by cpm (guest, #3554) [Link]

It won't. But that's not the point. market dominance is the point I suspect.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 22:24 UTC (Thu) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link]

Well, RAM is getting cheaper as time goes, and even with the current 256 MB of RAM, certain
operations are not doable in Linux.

The reason OLPC upgrades are done by rsync-ing the system directories is because an in-place
yum upgrade is too memory-intensive. I tried 'yum install prboom' and unless it's the only
thing running (plus the terminal), one of the component's post-install script could not run
because the laptop has run out of memory!

256 MB of RAM should be plenty

Posted Jan 10, 2008 23:22 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link]

That's all my computers have had for years, and it was always plenty for me. RAM is dirt
cheap, but as I don't need more I didn't buy more.

RAM isn't the problem, certain bloated/buggy software is.

256 MB of RAM should be plenty

Posted Jan 17, 2008 5:24 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

Seconded. 256Mb is the point at which I can feel reasonably comfortable turning swap off on my
machines.

Why do I need swap below this? Firefox... (and the occasional accident with qemu).

Am I alone in finding it somewhat offensive that the most resource-intensive application on my
machine is a glorified file viewer?

256 MB of RAM should be plenty

Posted Jan 17, 2008 16:45 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link]

Same here, but I need swap turned on for maps.google for when it goes in a buggy mem eating
state. Though there probably the flash plugin is to blame, not Firefox itself.

I need to restart Firefox once per day or so, to get rid of the memory usage accumulation. And
that with browser.cache.memory.enable set to false, apparently the leak is somewhere else.

256 MB of RAM should be plenty

Posted Jan 20, 2008 20:55 UTC (Sun) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

Try Firefox 3 Beta 2, it's already pretty stable and uses less memory than FF2, with many
memory leaks fixed.  Also the Back button is as fast as Opera on a 6 year old PC, making it
much more pleasant to use.

256 MB of RAM should be plenty

Posted Jan 26, 2008 2:21 UTC (Sat) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link]

Wow...

Thanks for the advice, it's indeed better. Though the back button isn't faster, and it uses a
bit more memory just after start up, but it doesn't leak memory any more, it seems. And
rendering appears to be much faster too. There seems to be a bug with displaying images
though, sometimes it are just black squares, but that's a minor nuisance.

Stable at 73 MB usage with 15 tabs open and lots of messing around happened, which previously
would have caused memory leaking (or "suboptimal caching", however you like to call it).

It's a historic moment, the first time Firefox actually improved performance-wise since the
Phoenix days.

256 MB of RAM should be plenty

Posted Jan 27, 2008 14:56 UTC (Sun) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link]

Ok, I cheered too early. After a few days it's as sluggish as FF2, and it has some annoying
"features" which can't be disabled it seems. Ctrl,+/- doesn't increase the fontsize anymore,
but zooms, horrible. Typing in the urlbar gives a list of possible urls, but not the ones
starting with what you typed, no, a list of all urls containing a part of what you typed, no
matter if it's in the middle of the url, and put those first instead of the logical ones. How
are people supposed to keep track of that in their minds? Scrolling long pages is much slower
than it used to be, painfully almost.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 23:50 UTC (Thu) by 3vi1 (guest, #39830) [Link]

The configuration must have some other problem.  I did an entire distribution upgrade from
Kubuntu Edgy to Feisty on a PS3 (which also has 256MB RAM), with KDE running, and it completed
successfully.

-J

I suspect...

Posted Jan 11, 2008 7:33 UTC (Fri) by khim (guest, #9252) [Link]

...that PS3 had quite sizable swap. Am I right ? You can not use flash for swap: there are not enough of flash and it'll wear flash in a few months, so 256MB is all you can ever have. With PS3 you probably had Gig or two of swap - big difference...

I suspect...

Posted Jan 11, 2008 9:01 UTC (Fri) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

I ran Xubuntu Feisty (XFCE based) in 192 MB and upgraded to Gutsy without problems - only
later did I find out that I hadn't had any swap enabled... So the problem isn't that 256 MB is
too small, it's bloated software (e.g. yum/Python vs APT in C), which is something that the
OLPC team has been focusing on slimming down.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 20:57 UTC (Thu) by csawtell (guest, #986) [Link]

E E E
^
|
OLPC is here.
We've seen it all before.


OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 15, 2008 7:29 UTC (Tue) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link]

Asus EEE ??? :>

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 22:39 UTC (Thu) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link]

I must admit at the onset this note has an optimistic tone that is not in tune with my
character.

This may not work out as MS hopes or most here fear.  Linux has to complete and on OLPC the
field is level, which favors Linux.  Moreover, the lack of imagination usually exhibited by MS
and its allies may hinder them when side by side each might be compared.  Furthermore, MS
lacks the ability to decree a massive excess of hardware that will allow its usual bloated
offerings the chance to shine.  If you were a kid, and one side held your interest why would
you even bother with the other?

Here I think Linux side has the advantage, hence, MS will have to struggle mightily to catch
up.  Or they could cheat by bribing the little ones, e.g. paying for votes.  However, that too
gets old with the smarter ones taking the money and still pursuing their preference.

I will quit there.  That's as sunny as I get.  Nonetheless, this is not a slam dunk for MS.
They should indeed be fearful.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 23:40 UTC (Thu) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link]

The kids won't be buying them, third world politicians will.  Some of them are almost as
corrupt as ours.  Adios Linux.

Protecting the choice

Posted Jan 11, 2008 0:11 UTC (Fri) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]

Negroponte and the OLPC project can, should, and probably will, insist that
any installation of MS Windows that they would consider shipping on their
product contain a simple button (installed, written and maintained by the
OLPC staff as part of the MS Windows imaging process prior to shipment)
that will offer the end user an opportunity to re-image the system using
OLPC open source software.

(They can extend this slightly --- to give the end user a choice to
re-image the machine with either Linux or MS Windows ... if Microsoft
insists and gives them the licensing terms to permit it.  But that can
ensure that the units, as they ship them, can be re-imaged with FLOSS
software).

This should blunt the threat of corrupt government officials limiting
open source usage by ordering MS Windows equipped XO systems.  Said
corrupt officials would have to order them *and* contrive to re-image
them or remove/disable this OLPC feature.  Doing so would make the whole
process a PR nightmare for said politicians ... to the point where it
wouldn't be as cost effective as simply moving to another vendor and
product (such as the EEE).

JimD

It'll be death sentence for OLPC

Posted Jan 11, 2008 7:36 UTC (Fri) by khim (guest, #9252) [Link]

...and countries will then use Classmate's instead. It's one thing to allow you to install software of your choice on your PC. It's totally different thing if you want to have common environment for teaching. And if half of the class will have Windows and half of the class will have Linux - it'll be nightmare for teacher.

Sorry, but this plan will not fly...

Teachers vs. Corrupt Politicians ...

Posted Jan 11, 2008 23:22 UTC (Fri) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]

First --- if the strategy forces the "corrupt politicians" to buy Classmate PCs instead then
that's not OLPC's problem.  Said "corrupt politician" will be asked why they are committing to
the higher price of the Classmate when an MS-Windows equipped XO is available.

Second, you'd find that many teachers won't care whether students are running one or another
so long as they can read the correct material.  Keep in mind that the core of this technology
is ebook delivery ... and most academic subjects will focus primarily on that usage.

Finally, has it occurred to you that lots of teachers are, in fact, constantly engaged in
discreet opposition to the corruption in the layers of bureaucracy under which they work.

Regardless of the details, so long as they have the option readily available then OLPC will
have done its part.  We can dream up a multitude of ways that their means might be subverted
and their greater goals may be thwarted.  But we can only expect them do to so much.  Engaging
Microsoft offers more opportunities than rejecting their overtures outright.  It introduces
some additional risks (but many of those risks exist regardless of whether they negotiate
and/or work with MS or not).

JimD

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 10, 2008 23:36 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link]

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 4:13 UTC (Fri) by mrons (subscriber, #1751) [Link]

I read that article as saying they are not interested in dual booting.

They are only interested in single booting Windows.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 4:17 UTC (Fri) by mrons (subscriber, #1751) [Link]

Just to clarify, "they" in both sentences of my comment is referring to Microsoft.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 12, 2008 14:19 UTC (Sat) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link]

Ah, you're right, of course. I missed that.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 8:01 UTC (Fri) by charris (subscriber, #13263) [Link]

This makes sense to me. The aim of the OLPC project is to get their laptops into the hands of
children, not to promote Linux. And some countries aren't interested in a computer that
doesn't run Windows. If Microsoft, for whatever reasons, is willing to help get windows
working properly on the XO, then so much the better for the project.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 9:07 UTC (Fri) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

It makes very little technical or educational sense - the OLPC's innovations in software such
as Sugar, Bitfrost security, mesh networking, etc, will be hard to replicate on Windows, and
of course Windows requires extra hardware that adds cost, and almost certainly reduces battery
life (the OLPC has about 15 times better power consumption than an average laptop, partly
through smart software power management).   Investing in Windows versions of this software
will divert effort from improving the platform and educational applications.

The only reason to support Windows is to help Microsoft's share price and make it easy for
Microsoft to ensure a new generation of kids learn Windows.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 11:18 UTC (Fri) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

the OLPC's innovations in software such as Sugar, Bitfrost security, mesh networking, etc, will be hard to replicate on Windows, and of course Windows requires extra hardware that adds cost, and almost certainly reduces battery life

Why would be hard to replicate? They have access to the source, don't they? They also have the workforce to copy and reimplement the algorithms. Windows XP doesn't even have that big hardware needs and I'm afraid Windows is generally nicer to battery life than Linux (at least on my laptop Windows works for 3-4 hours, Ubuntu Gutsy is lucky to work for 2 hours).

Bye,NAR

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 16:53 UTC (Fri) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

The issue is that Microsoft would have to throw out the standard Windows UI (for Sugar),
security (for Bitfrost), and networking (for mesh WiFi) - these are all technically possible
with enough developers, but I suspect some of this code is GPLed (at least kernel drivers
could be an issue) so would need to be cleanroom developed.  

More significantly, Microsoft doesn't like its standard Windows UI and APIs to be customized -
e.g. telecoms companies can't customize Windows Mobile to use their branding and there are
significant limits on the customization allowed by PC OEMs in terms of Windows customizations.

You are comparing standard Windows to standard Linux on PCs for battery life, but OLPC has
made huge strides in battery life through customizing Linux for better power management - so
clearly Linux can improve battery life by 10 to 15 times as in the XO, the question is whether
Windows can do this as well.

Most likely this is all possible, but I'm fairly sure Microsoft would prefer to make minimal
enhancements to Windows, other than having it boot and maybe use mesh networking.  If the
children use a heavily customized OLPC-like Windows, some of the advantage to Microsoft of
having Windows on OLPC is lost.

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 11, 2008 20:18 UTC (Fri) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

How long is Windows XP going to be actively supported (and developed) by Microsoft?

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 12, 2008 11:46 UTC (Sat) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]

As long as it benefits them to do so!

OLPC Project Working on Windows and Linux Dual-boot System (TMCnet)

Posted Jan 17, 2008 11:23 UTC (Thu) by csawtell (guest, #986) [Link]

I'm afraid Windows is generally nicer to battery life than Linux (at least on my laptop Windows works for 3-4 hours, Ubuntu Gutsy is lucky to work for 2 hours).
Played with Powertop?

Be pleasantly surprised.

It's not about cheap laptops.

Posted Jan 11, 2008 18:54 UTC (Fri) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link]

I disagree. These quotes are from the OLPC pages:

“It's an education project, not a laptop project.” — Nicholas Negroponte

and

A computer uniquely fosters learning learning by allowing children to “think about thinking”, in ways that are otherwise impossible. Using the XO as both their window on the world, as well as a highly programmable tool for exploring it, children in emerging nations will be opened to both illimitable knowledge and to their own creative and problem-solving potential.

If Microsoft can supply software to allow the same level of not just usability but understandability, then great, but as of right now it sounds like they are just attempting to squeeze Windows onto it for the sake of having Windows. Will Microsoft also be providing the knowledge needed for these kids to be able to hack the OLPC and Windows itself? If not, then it sounds as if this effort does not have the same goals as the Linux one.

It's not about cheap laptops.

Posted Jan 13, 2008 15:55 UTC (Sun) by cpm (guest, #3554) [Link]

---
 Will Microsoft also be providing the knowledge needed for these kids to be
able to hack the OLPC and Windows itself? If not, then it sounds as if this 
effort does not have the same goals as the Linux one.
---

Sorry for my cynicism, but I expect -to the first point- this is/was/always
has been the point of the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation. 
To the second point, 'hacking' the olpc will be dropped. 

Time will tell, always does.

--

Windows open source?

Posted Jan 11, 2008 11:36 UTC (Fri) by jorism (subscriber, #21807) [Link]

So, does this mean that the Windows version to be put on these new laptops will be open
source? I remind having read an interview a year ago or so where the OLPC people boasted about
the show-me-the-source key that would be on the keyboard. The software on the laptop would be
completely open to enable the children to tinker with it and learn some programming along the
way. If they will keep this promise, then this can only be good news (having an open source
version of Windows around would be great, obviously).

show-me-the-source ? ha

Posted Jan 11, 2008 21:36 UTC (Fri) by khim (guest, #9252) [Link]

This is great thing and it does work - but only on the Python (activities) level. You'll not find sources for kernel or libc on your XO. I think it'll be easy to provide this level with Windows as well - without making it open source...

show-me-the-source ? ha

Posted Jan 15, 2008 7:27 UTC (Tue) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link]

There are also smalltalk/squeak applicaitons. I suppose this key should work for them as well.
For compiled C code, yes, this would be problematic.

show-me-the-source ? ha

Posted Feb 14, 2008 21:14 UTC (Thu) by hazelsct (guest, #3659) [Link]

HTML too.  And with these two as precedent, why not later expand to (uncompressed) OpenDoc and
other XML?

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