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Aaron Seigo on KDE 4.0

KDE developer Aaron Seigo has posted a lengthy "talking bluntly" message on KDE 4.0. "KDE 4.0 isn't yet 'better than good enough'; so why don't we just release more betas? When one perpetually releases alphas/betas a few things happen: people don't test it aggressively enough, third party developers don't get involved, core developers continue doing blue sky development rather than focusing on release qualities."
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Congratulations and thanks to Aaron Seigo et al for KDE 4.0

Posted Jan 6, 2008 9:37 UTC (Sun) by csawtell (subscriber, #986) [Link]

I have just down loaded the KDE-4.0.0_rc2 Live CD an hour or two ago, ran it, and have very quickly come to the conclusion that Aaron Seigo and his team have produced a very suave desktop envionment. They richly deserve our congratulations and thanks. Do please keep the Live CD reasonably up to date so we can demonstrate KDE-4 to friends and relatives.

Testing Issues on KDE4 pre

Posted Jan 7, 2008 13:51 UTC (Mon) by roblucid (subscriber, #48964) [Link]

What do they gain, by releasing alpha quality rc, and beta quality x.0.0 
release?

They actually weren't releasing early and often, but the opposite.  It was 
hard to get binary releases to test KDE4 applications under a KDE4 
environment, core components (for example Plasma) were far from finished.

That made it very hard to submit useful bug reports.  It was only with the 
later rc's that the situation improved, lagging after the testing appeals 
on news sites which caused greater participation.

I used KDE 1, 2.0 & 3.0 in past, day to day, and this is the first release 
that I'm really concerned about.  In the past the improvements were 
self-evident and intuitive to an experienced KDE user.  This time, I found 
new eye-candy but difficulties in usage, making it hard to spend more than 
a few stints testing.  When this gets discussed in blogs, folk pipe up 
about damage being done to developer morale, and  heated arguments in IRC.  
Frankly I don't think my "participation" submitting bug reports, really 
helped except in one case.

Looked like release managers keen to push 4.0 out the door to get 
a "result" in time for the Google event, and using the release labels to 
pressure developers late on delivering features.  That seems to cause 
acrimony and now a round of justifications.

Testing Issues on KDE4 pre

Posted Jan 7, 2008 19:16 UTC (Mon) by and (subscriber, #2883) [Link]

I've actually build the final 4.0.0 version using kdesvn-build. I think 
while it certainly isn't on par with 3.5.8 when it comes features, 
speed and configurability, it is quite usable once you get accustomed to 
it. (I have used it a full day.) KDE 3.5 will stay my main desktop for a 
while, though... 

API-wise it's a huge improvement, though. Especially Qt's MVC model is a 
big step into the right direction. IMHO this alone makes the 4.0 release 
worthwhile from a developer POV, since one can now develop apps for KDE4 
using a released version of the desktop.

KDE4 == Netscape 6.0

Posted Jan 7, 2008 23:12 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Netscape 6.0 was quite poor browser: slow, buggy, memory-hungry, etc. Yet it was "new release" from major brand and it handled CSS good enough to actually write dynamic HTML pages. Thus it prompted creation of a lot of HTML/CSS books where MS IE was not the only way to create DHTML pages described. Later it led to success of Firefox we currently seeing. All this was only possible because it was "a release".

KDE 4.0 is the same: buggy, slow, yet released version of KDE 4.x. ISVs can now target it (along with GNOME 2.x). It'll be important later.

KDE4 == Netscape 6.0

Posted Jan 8, 2008 16:09 UTC (Tue) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

I think most saw the NS 6.0 release as a catastrophe, the good part was Firefox, but that, I
think, was mostly prompted by a "Ok, we officially SUCK, let's get this out to someone
else"-attitude afterwards...

Testing Issues on KDE4 pre

Posted Jan 8, 2008 2:22 UTC (Tue) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link]

KDE 4 isn't ready for general use. It is ready as a development platform.

That is what this release is for.

Derek (who wonders some days whether free software will survive the 
desktop)

Testing Issues on KDE4 pre

Posted Jan 8, 2008 5:56 UTC (Tue) by aseigo (guest, #18394) [Link]

> They actually weren't releasing early and often, but the opposite.  It

i agree; there was a too-long period where we didn't have a release 
management team looking after the kde4 process (they had remained focussed 
on kde3 instead).

of course, we rectify that and people complain about that too ;)

> In the past the improvements were self-evident and intuitive to an
> experienced KDE user.  This time, I found 
> new eye-candy but difficulties in usage, making it hard to spend more
> than a few stints testing. 

yes, some things have changed. that's a truism. some things aren't 
complete; another truism. however, many of the improvements in 4.0 are 
pretty self-evident. 4 is the largest divergence we've taken, since 1-3 
were all essentially "build a foundation, follow the taillights" releases. 
you could say much of the same things about the first versions of macos 
(though they spent a greater number of years working on things behind the 
scenes as their os9 crumbled into the ground; f/oss vs proprietary 
differences there).

even good change sucks, and then you get used to it and it's good again. 
rejecting change as a knee jerk reaction is actually an evolutionary 
advantage for an animal such as a human: it keeps us in the safe ruts of 
what we already know works. unfortunately, it tends to keep us there even 
when what works doesn't work very well and in the case of new technology 
it can keep us in the ruts of that which doesn't work for others at all. 
many kde users struggle with some of the interesting quirks of kde3; in 
the project, and esp as someone who travels about visiting people all 
about, i get to see this quite a bit.

that isn't to say kde3 sucks. it doesn't: it rocks =) there are things 
that could be done better, and that's what we're attempting to do. i'm 
sure we'll cock up here and there, but thus far we have far and away more 
successes than otherwise going on in kde4 and what cock ups we've managed 
are pretty temporary in nature.

> When this gets discussed in blogs, folk pipe up 
> about damage being done to developer morale, and  heated arguments in

that was not due to criticism raised, but the amazing lack of civility 
displayed time and again by people who would essentially show up to throw 
a tantrum. i could show you emails, BR's and web forum comments that would 
curl your toes. that was the problem, not constructive feedback.

over the years the free software user base has grown increasingly 
aggressive, abusive and generally mean spirited; this is because it's 
grown in size and thus is becoming more representative of the populace at 
large. we don't have many cultural ways of dealing with truly antisocial 
outbursts effectively (free software projects are often either too nice to 
say anything or too ready to flame back at full bore; i've personally been 
guilty of both sins) and so right now this new vocal minority are causing 
problems. it doesn't help that the traditional flame war often looks 
similar to this new whinging that happens, but the difference is that in 
most traditional flame wars the people on all sides were well meaning and 
looking for solution.

> Frankly I don't think my "participation" submitting bug reports, really 
> helped except in one case.

that's one better than none. =) the biggest issue i've seen with bug 
reports is that they would get fixed and then others would file the same 
one, which can feel pretty frustrating for the reporter, no doubt.

i honestly wish bugzilla was a lot better, that we had a better 
distribution mechanism for development releases (well, we have the daily 
live cd's now which are pretty good) ... i do fear that we (the f/oss 
community) don't spend enough time working on our tools. (ugh, gdb!)

> Looked like release managers keen to push 4.0 out the door to get 
> a "result" in time for the Google event, and using the release labels to 
> pressure developers late on delivering features.  That seems to cause 
> acrimony and now a round of justifications.

that isn't what happened at all. in fact, we created a contingency plan 
for how to do the release event even if 4.0 wasn't out by then. the plan 
was actually pretty good and the promo team was comfortable with it.

we have been careful not to let marketing push these decisions around; in 
fact, if marketing had, we probably would've done the releases very 
differently. it probably would've gone better for marketing but worse for 
the tech, the project and ultimately the users.

but it is funny that people would blame marketing for something that 
obviously isn't good from a marketing perspective ;)

Testing Issues on KDE4 pre

Posted Jan 9, 2008 0:53 UTC (Wed) by csawtell (subscriber, #986) [Link]

> over the years the free software user base has grown increasingly 
> aggressive, abusive and generally mean spirited; this is because it's 
> grown in size and thus is becoming more representative of the populace at 
> large. we don't have many cultural ways of dealing with truly antisocial 
> outbursts effectively (free software projects are often either too
> nice to say anything or too ready to flame back at full bore;
See the Google Talk entitled How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People (And You Can Too)

Essentially it's an extensive elaboration on the time honoured dictum:
"Don't feed the trolls". Simple though it is, it really works.

> i honestly wish bugzilla was a lot better,
Don't we all! Personally I am pathologically allergic to it. It seems to have been thrown together by a real genius in a hurry to solve an urgent problem. Subsequently, it's been overlaid by layers of code which attempt to improve the human interface, but which imho largely fail so to do. From my somewhat limited contact with it, Mantis appears to be a far superior solution to the problem.

> and that we had a better distribution mechanism for development releases
> (well, we have the daily live cd's now which are pretty good) ...
But please could you look into the possibility of creating deltup files so that your testing community doesn't have to d/l 500 to 700 megs each day to test and play with the latest and greatest. The mechanism by Nicolai Lissner et al offers an automatic and very practical solution to the problem.

> i do fear that we (the f/oss community) don't spend enough time working 
> on our tools. (ugh, gdb!)

Oh, so true. But eclipse and kdevelop are both pretty fabulous.

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