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Plenty of work aheadPlenty of work aheadPosted Dec 1, 2007 18:44 UTC (Sat) by muwlgr (guest, #35359)Parent article: The first ATI r5xx/6xx X11 driver release
To compete even with Intel driver, in terms of overall usability. And a little more work to get in line witn NVidia closed-source offer. Too early to announce about its existence, I think :>
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Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 1, 2007 23:51 UTC (Sat) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link] I don't know, it sounds about equally as capable as the open source intel driver for my X3100 based Thinkpad T61. The 2D performance is terrible and running any OpenGL applications immediately freezes the entire computer.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 0:24 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] What version of drivers are you using? Mine is stable with acceptable 3D support and good 2D acceleration. It also suspends to ram several times a day and this has worked better then my old Ibook.. with either OS X or Linux on it. Compiz-fusion works well also, the only major problem is that EXA support isn't fast enough for large videos with 32bit graphics, so I run 16bit. Oh and OpenGL applications still are ugly when running on compiz.. but their performance isn't affected in a noticable way. That and it's xrandr support allows me to hotplug external monitors and configure X to use them on the fly, which is a new experiance for with with open source drivers. BTW, this is with Debian Unstable/testing on a Dell 1420n.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 0:31 UTC (Sun) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link] Whatever they shipped in Gutsy still can't render anything worth a damn with OpenGL. Even something pedestrian like Google Earth looks like junk on the GMA X3100. I am fairly upset that I bought this Intel graphics chip 14 months ago on the strength of the idea that a GPL driver would be a good thing. In practice, the lack of public documentation means that the GPL driver is held hostage to the whims of Keith Packard, and it seems that the things Keith is interested in working on do not include correct output. I give him props for the randr 1.2 stuff, but even that isn't particularly hot in practice. With whatever version is in Ubuntu Gutsy, rotating my display locks up the hardware.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 2:55 UTC (Sun) by dberkholz (subscriber, #23346) [Link] Sounds like you're held to the whims of Ubuntu, then, since you haven't tried the latest driver to see whether your problems are fixed. Have you reported your problems on a bug?
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 3:09 UTC (Sun) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link] True, to an extent, and bug reports are mostly ignored if you are not using the git head revision of the driver, xorg, and mesa. That's a common method that open source developers use to pass the buck back to the bug reporter, but that's a subject for another post.
bug reports in open source projects Posted Dec 3, 2007 10:49 UTC (Mon) by DonDiego (subscriber, #24141) [Link] I really cannot speak for x.org, but given the low signal to noise ratio of bug reports in general I must say I mostly ignore bug reports that are not against Subversion HEAD as well. Spend some time tracing a bug report only to find out that it's fixed already when I have about 100 things on my ToDo list and only time for about 5? Not to mention that 99 of those things are more fun than validating bug reports? No, I really cannot be bothered to throw away my unpaid free time like that ...
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 15:01 UTC (Mon) by alankila (subscriber, #47141) [Link] Also remember that if you do not have the HEAD revision of the software compiled, then you can't even test any fixes. So you not only do not know for sure whether the bug still exists, you also can't tell whether its fixed by any changes made.
Actually it's possible Posted Dec 3, 2007 15:48 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Someone must do the following work: It's still better then situation in Windows world where you can only submit bugreport and hope that someone sometime will read it and you'll get your fix half-year later...
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 15:35 UTC (Mon) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link] Running HEAD seems to me to be a fair way for a developer to ensure that the reporter is willing to invest at least a little bit of time towards diagnosing the problem and not just fire-and-forget bug reporting, which is not really of use to anyone.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 18:08 UTC (Mon) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link] Building the tip of mesa and xorg is a major undertaking which is likely to break every package on any given system. Nevermind the minor fact that frequently the tip is in an unbuildable or incompatible state. For my own code, I follow the policy of taking a bug report seriously unless I have reason to believe that it has been fixed in a newer revision. I believe there was a long and thoughtful post on linux-kernel regarding this very issue recently, where the author (a major kernel developer) concluded that it's counterproductive to insist on testing with latest-test-rc-mm.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 19:57 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Stable kernel interfaces be damned. Both the X.org Intel drivers and DRI driver and libraries can be compiled out-of-tree and be usable. I've done that before when trying out different features that are only avialable via cvs. (like texture/memory management features for the 915tex driver). Especially with the DRI libraries. Using LD_PRELOAD tricks it's very possible to change between 3D driver versions while running a single X session. There is almost no need to ever have to overwrite anything provided by your distribution. The whole X server can be compiled seperately from distro-provided stuff if you like. If the CVS breaks everything then just go back to what is provided by your distribution. Worst case is that you have to compile a custom kernel to take advantage of some features because of patches to DRM or AGPGART stuff. Soo... If you actually care about trying out patches and filing usefull bug reports then there is nothing that is stopping you. Especially about 3D drivers. Remember almost all of it, except for the DRM or AGP stuff, is userspace. Not much at all depends in any way on the kernel (unlike your proprietary drivers) your using and you can use different LD tricks and chroots to run any of it like any other application. And remember now that X is now _modular_. The drivers themselves can be compiled seperately from X. If your using a relatively recent version of X you can try out the latest 2D Intel driver by just copying over the existing intel_drv.so file! If your worried about breakage then just keep a backup to copy back. This is a little out of date: http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/NormalUserBuild For example a most of the stuff has moved away from CVS to Git, but for the most part it still applies. This tells you how to compile and run latest versions of Mesa libs, and DRI without _EVER_EVEN_BECOMING_ROOT_. Have you never had more then one version of a program or libraries installed on your computer before?! If your using Gutsy and the Intel stuff is crapping out on you then bitch to Ubuntu for shipping something broken. On my Debian Unstable/Testing is is pretty stable, not perfect, but it works well. A freind at work has a X3000 chipset and is using Fedora Core 8 and it runs Compiz pretty well except for the 2D and 3D overlay problem/ugliness.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 19:26 UTC (Mon) by dvdeug (subscriber, #10998) [Link] I've had the feeling with way too many projects that they're more willing to make cute new features rather than actually fixing the bugs that are giving me trouble. File-and-forget bug handling or making unreasonable demands on me just accentuate that feeling. Demanding that I exchange a mostly-working program for a program that may not even compile or work remotely correctly is absurd for anyone who actually has to use the program in question on the system in question. I see the reasoning behind it, but OSS already has a preception, often true, of not worrying about the hard unfun stuff that users need. Stating that you're going to ignore bug reports unless they follow a development version just stress that feeling.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 4, 2007 17:05 UTC (Tue) by jsbarnes (subscriber, #4096) [Link] Have you tried filing bugs for the issues you see in Gutsy? We worked a lot with the Ubuntu team on the 2.2 driver release, fixing many Ubuntu reported problems in the process. And we try to be responsive to bug reports in general (and I generally don't ask people to test newer versions unless I have reason to think the bug is fixed there and I want confirmation).
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 2:59 UTC (Sun) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] I can't really speak as to any hostage holding, but I can say that the intel 3d support has not really impressed me, under Linux. The performance under windows is notably better, delivering framerates in 2-3 times better range, without video glitches, and while the stability of Windows has its ups and downs, the Linux OpenGL experience with my GMA X3000 usually locks the machine solid. The experience of this driver has actually driven me to use Windows again to get certain work done after around ten years of Linux as my sole working platform. I suspect there is simply not enough manpower in the arena of the video drivers on Linux.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 17:32 UTC (Sun) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] "" The experience of this driver has actually driven me to use Windows again to get certain work done after around ten years of Linux as my sole working platform. I suspect there is simply not enough manpower in the arena of the video drivers on Linux. "" Nevertheless i still use Linux... try the proprietary offerings... I've being "crying to the winds" in this forum for more than half a decade!!... In my opinion its not manpower its the *will* and a workable method and organization( concentrated efforts, because reverse engineering would be still in the menu ) to obviate the lack of a long in time stable API or ABI of the driver model. Worst that can happen its the various distros driving different implementations as a marketing differentiation point!... akin to our favorite "Bill" selling *rope*, openly and without shame, at the entrances of RH, Novell, Canonical... LF... headquarters ( rope for people to hang themselfs )... ( for crying out loud why isn't DKMS official tree code ?... or am i being out for too long ?!) If the *will* is there, than it only misses a good development method and organization for it to take off good... because the hardware manufactores wont do it "really" for free for OSS( no matter what they claim)... for them is just a matter of dumping development, maintenance and support costs to the community. If the *will* is there and the method and organization, then 'we' can talk about Linux desktop really taking off and spreading like wild fire, otherwise, we better talk about santa claus!
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 18:34 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (subscriber, #6227) [Link] "for crying out loud why isn't DKMS official tree code" Because upstream kernel developers think that out-of-tree kernel code is disgusting and awful and evil, and DKMS is unnecessary for in-tree code. They don't mind the idea that, in order to use new hardware or use a newer driver, you need to upgrade your entire fucking kernel, along with without user-space libraries and daemons and tools occassionally get broken by those updates (hal, udev, and anything that uses the fluid sysfs paths). Not sure it's really worth it to whine about the kernel like that, though. It's the same deal for a Linux distribution as a whole. Want a newer version of FooApp? Upgrade your whole fucking OS to the next release, and then you also get all those undesired changes to your desktop and other apps along with all the new bugs and breakage you didn't have to put up with before. Linux (both the kernel and the family of OSes) has always been based on one of two models: the "compile shit directly from version control on a daily basis" model and the "you get a fixed set of software snapshots in your OS appliance" model. If you dislike both of those models, use a different OS.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 20:39 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Plus DKMS isn't a big deal when it comes to open source drivers. The only thing that matters in terms of kernel would be things like DRM or AGPGART stuff. DRI and Xorg XAA/EXA drivers have no dependancy on the kernel beyond that. It's fairly trivial to manage multiple versions of the Intel driver or have compiled a Mesa tree and DRI stuff outside your distribution-provided stuff. It's even possible to switch between multiple versions of DRI drivers within the same X session. It just requires LD_LIBRARY_PATH tricks to point applications at a different path. for example: export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/path/to/xc/xc/exports/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH export LIBGL_DRIVERS_DIR=/path/to/Mesa/lib It's not that hard at all. With the 2D drivers you just copy over the *_drv.so file, and keep backups of the originals so you can go back if it breaks something. Occasionally you'll run into kernel-level dependancies for a new texture memory management change or something like that. But for the most part they can be compiled into modules.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 15, 2007 19:09 UTC (Sat) by anton (subscriber, #25547) [Link] [...] intel 3d support has not really impressed me, under Linux. The performance under windows is notably better, delivering framerates in 2-3 times better range [...]For various Radeon cards running the r300 driver I have seen about a factor of 2 slowdown on UT2004 compared to Windows.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 5:21 UTC (Sun) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link] My machine is running Fedora 7, and I manually installed the drivers from here a couple of weeks ago. I pulled the latest version (at the time) from their repository. When I bought this machine I followed the current conventional wisdom and went with an all-Intel model (intel video, intel audio, intel wireless, etc) because in theory everything would be supported by open source drivers. Unfortunately since it is such a new machine, the different bits are only just starting to get supported properly. I guess when I get a chance I will try redoing the install with a newer drop.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 17:04 UTC (Sun) by beoba (guest, #16942) [Link] One of the primary tenets of open source is "release early, release often". Benefits include more interest from potential developers and more bugfixes from early-adopter usage.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 17:47 UTC (Sun) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] "" One of the primary tenets of open source is "release early, release often". "" Just an inconsequential 'cliche'. Nothing surpasses experience and the *will* to do it, and or to do it right and good, even if its not often nor earlier.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 18:45 UTC (Sun) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link] you are correct that nothing replaces a will to work on a project, but the parent was responding to the complaint that this wasn't a perfect driver yet, and I agree with him that the principal of 'release early and release often' is appropriate. they have a driver that is useable (but not finished) and they are releasing it so that people can find bugs in it and tinker with it themselves.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 2, 2007 22:41 UTC (Sun) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] Absolutely correct... but it doesn't invalidate that we can get 3 or 4 projects doing the same thing *early and often*, none gets to be *god enough* because of the waiting for input and the lack of "will" for concentrated efforts... to the point that 3 different experiences gets to 3 different code repositorys with little chance of code intermingling... being the funny or tragic fact that one is better at some features than the others, and vice versa, and the sum of the three should had made a considerable better product while people are stucked with buying $300 pieces for only using $100.
Plenty of work ahead Posted Dec 3, 2007 0:52 UTC (Mon) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link] but if they all wait until they are 'finished' to release anything the result is none of them every show up, there's no chance for them to pickup features from each other, and no chance for new developers to build off of what's been done instead of starting from scratch. I agree that there needs to be a will to keep working, but in this case there's no indication of any lack of will, so it seems like you are spouting discouragement when what needs to happen in to encourage them to keep going (by pure praise, bug reports, beta testing, or coding), not fussing that the driver they released doesn't have all the features yet.
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