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An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

By Jake Edge
November 20, 2007

Long-time Red Hat employee and Mozilla contributor Christopher Blizzard recently took a new job as a member of the Evangelism team at Mozilla Corporation. Just settling in – he started just over a week ago – he graciously agreed to be interviewed. His answers provide a look at evangelism at Mozilla, what his role will be, along with a bit of a retrospective on his days at Red Hat.

LWN: What does it mean to be on the Evangelism team at Mozilla? What kinds of things does the team do?

The Evangelism team at Mozilla has quite a few roles to play. We handle a lot of external communications, including some amount of press, although there's a separate press team that handles most of that. Sometimes it's tactical – responding to a bad blog entry or press result and repairing misleading facts or conclusions when that's possible. But it's strategic as well in the sense that we try and understand and compose the story of Mozilla into a consumable form and then try and tell that to the world. Mozilla has a good story to tell and helping people understand who we are and what we're doing opens doors both for us and for others. It's an important role in any organization, but especially ours.

We also do a bit of internal communications facilitating as well. As the project and the company grow past certain sizes that kind of "internal understanding" role is going to be more and more critical. Organizations that don't understand themselves get into trouble in pretty short order. We're around to keep that from happening as best we can. Think of it as guarding the culture as new people come on board.

We also do a lot of technical evangelism as well. Just as examples you can see that work in Mark Finkle's weblog where he does a lot of work describing add-ons and extensions and what's going on in that area. John Resig also does a lot of work telling the story of JavaScript and the upcoming ES4 work to the world as well. Asa Dotzler and Seth Bindernagel do a lot of work with the community directly while Deb Richardson and Eric Shepherd both do a lot of work on documentation and external communications.

We're a diverse group with a lot of different roles, but that's the nature of the audiences we face.

But these systems are under attack by companies like Microsoft and Adobe, attempting to replace them with a proprietary platform under the control of a single company. These represent an attack on the web itself, and should be taken very seriously. LWN: What are your specific near-term tasks as part of the team?

My role is really to figure out how to work with other open source projects and help them figure out how to properly leverage what we're doing in Mozilla. This includes organizational development. For example, we are a non-profit, public benefit organization that acts like a business. But we are also an open source project with a very active non-corporate contributor base, targets a consumer market and has a strong product focus and over 100 million users - we would love to see that replicated in other places as well and we would love the chance to teach others how to do it.

We also share a common alignment with a huge number of other open source projects. Open source projects require an open playing field to build on. These usually take the form of "open standards" and right now form the basis of the web that we see today, and many of the forms of communication used on the Internet. HTTP, HTML, CSS, SMTP, Jabber, etc. These were standards that anyone was able to implement and saw an explosive growth in use as a result. But these systems are under attack by companies like Microsoft and Adobe, attempting to replace them with a proprietary platform under the control of a single company. These represent an attack on the web itself, and should be taken very seriously. Remember that the web is still the killer app, and keeping that open and protected is paramount.

Our role has to be larger than just delivering a browser that normal people can use. We also have to push the web itself forward to make sure that it remains competitive against other platforms and is the platform of choice for development. This means evolving the languages that the web uses, adding capabilities to the browser itself (video, audio, canvas, SVG, others) and then putting it into a consumable package that people love to use on the widest possible set of platforms.

That's the context for my role. What I will try and do is to make sure that well-aligned open source projects understand this story and know what we're doing on the ground so that we can help them and they can help us. Mozilla has a huge footprint of users and we want to make sure that other open source projects know how to take advantage of that. What this actually means in terms of actions is still something that's being figured out but we'll start to see movement in the next few weeks.

There are some easy first steps. First steps include helping with our embedded and mobile stories (where open source and Linux have a lot of leverage) and sparking discussions on performance and footprint. I will also continue with my Linux role and act as a contact for the Linux distributions that are shipping Firefox and Mozilla technologies today.

LWN: Are there specific ways that you will be using your Red Hat and Linux background in your new job?

I was at Red Hat for nearly 9 years, and I am a vastly changed person as a result of that time, so of course! But a lot of the work that I did there will be used indirectly. I learned a lot of things at Red Hat. I learned to think strategically, how to build and run teams, what makes successful projects and a nearly rabid devotion to building products that really help the people who are using them. How important design and a user focus is to building a successful product. The incredible importance of brand in the development of products and how to build messaging around that. I learned some important lessons about how to mix business and open source projects. That recognizing companies is an incredibly important part of making many projects successful and cultivating those relationships can create wins on both sides. I learned that open source itself isn't a business model, but requires a different way to think about how you deliver value to people and organizations. But the most important thing that I probably walked away with was that the most important factor that seems to make an organization successful (aside from having a market to work in!) is the people that you bring to the table. Red Hat was filled with wonderful people, and still is. I take that lesson to heart in choosing the people around me and who I will try and bring to Mozilla as well. It's incredibly important.

LWN: Will you still be involved in OLPC development? In an official capacity as part of your job with Mozilla? What kinds of things will you be working on?

I certainly won't be involved to the same level I was. I had day to day involvement in the software development and design process and what OLPC will deliver to the public is something that I both deserve much of the credit and much of the blame for. There are still some touch points with OLPC from time to time, largely around the browser that's included on the OLPC machine, but I'm not that involved with them right now.

I decided it was time to go somewhere that would let me affect a lot of people and create some leverage for open source. Mozilla is that place. LWN: What led to deciding to leave Red Hat after so many years?

The answer to that question is complicated and deeply personal. Some small part of it was just employment diversification. I had been there for 9 years, which is a huge portion of my young life, and I felt like I should experience something else.

But it was also a question of leverage for me. Red Hat is an enterprise company. They are doing well in that market and are doing a great job of developing value for that customer segment and bringing the story of open source along with them. The are a committed organization and are well-liked and continue to make good decisions.

But they aren't going to be able to change the world from the back office and have become far too conservative over the years to go out and touch human beings directly. And they aren't going to be large enough any time soon to be able to have credible experiments to grow into a "consumer" market. I learned that the hard way with both OLPC and Mugshot and I decided it was time to go somewhere that would let me affect a lot of people and create some leverage for open source. Mozilla is that place.

But, really, that question should be "why Mozilla?" Mozilla is still a pretty small organization, less than 150 people. I feel like I have a lot to bring to the organization, both based on my experience inside of Mozilla (which is longer than my Red Hat experience!) and from my work at Red Hat. Mozilla is trying to create change in the world in a very real way by touching people directly, and doing so using open source methodologies under the umbrella of a public benefit company. They have a fantastic team from the top to the bottom of the organization, want to compete and want to keep their users winning by creating a great product that protects the web. It's unique in the market, and I hope to do my part to keep it that way.

LWN: What things do you look back on that you did at Red Hat that you are most pleased with? Are there things you would have done differently?

I've always been pretty happy with the desktop work that happened at Red Hat. These days Ubuntu gets most of the credit for the Linux Desktop but it was _clearly_ Red Hat (and Ximian/Novell!) that did much of the heavy lifting to get it from where it was in the mid-1990s to where it is today, and that is still the case. GNOME in particular would have not gotten past the stages of its infancy without Red Hat's early involvement, and I like where it's gotten today. (Anyone else remember GNOME 0.27?) I had a part to play there with my early Mozilla development work, which I very carefully selected for that reason, and I think that helped things get on the right track. It was a good decision and I really like the outcome.

The OLPC work was quite satisfying. If not only because of the proposed effect - helping millions of poor kids gain a foothold in the world of knowledge that I take for granted every day - but also because I was able to take that decade of knowledge of what was broken in computing and apply it. A lot of what you will see in OLPC is a result of that, sometimes with me acting as the guy driving ideas and sometimes acting as a champion for the ideas of others. I can take some solace that even though I'm not working on it today, a lot of that work I can point at as my own. I hope that many of the other team members feel the same way.

But I made a huge number of mistakes. I passed on some very early leadership opportunities where I probably could have made an earlier difference and pushed things harder. Failing to grow out of an early engineering position and thinking about wider issues around teams, users, strategy, markets and business. I should have done that earlier and I think that if I had, we would all be a little better off.

But on reflection, it would be hard to point to many things that I would want to change. It's still a good company and I am happy to have worked there.

Our thanks to Christopher for taking time to respond, especially during his, probably rather busy, first week on the job.


(Log in to post comments)

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 21, 2007 10:42 UTC (Wed) by nedrichards (subscriber, #23295) [Link]

Absolutely fascinating interview, exactly the kind of thing I pay for LWN to read. Nice one.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 21, 2007 20:21 UTC (Wed) by and (guest, #2883) [Link]

> Absolutely fascinating interview, exactly the kind of thing I pay for 
> LWN to read. Nice one.

Same with me :)

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 22, 2007 9:27 UTC (Thu) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

A really good evangelical move that Mozilla could make is to provide open-source builds by
default and lose the restricted content and name/trademark control-freakery.

People go around writing that "Firefox is an open source browser" which it is on one level,
but sadly the versions that most people run aren't open source/free software.  They'd make a
lot of non-corporation contributors happier by open-sourcing the brand.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 23, 2007 16:53 UTC (Fri) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

Do you believe that doing so would have no negative effects at all? 

Or do you have a plan to eliminate or mitigate the negative effects that the Mozilla project
obviously thinks would occur? If so, care to share? :-)

Gerv

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 16:02 UTC (Sun) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]

What makes this different from all the other open source projects which don't have control
freakery around their branding?  I don't see all these demons manifesting around apache,
Linux, etc that the Mozilla foundation appears to be worried about.

In short there are plenty of examples of this problem not existing for similar projects, so
"paying" for against a nonproblem with a lack of freedom seems wrong-headed to me, indeed.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 16:03 UTC (Sun) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]

err.. paying for insurnace against a nonproblem.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 16:03 UTC (Sun) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link]

also, insurance.  Ugh, I need coffee.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 16:22 UTC (Sun) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

What makes this different from all the other open source projects which don't have control freakery around their branding? I don't see all these demons manifesting around apache, Linux, etc that the Mozilla foundation appears to be worried about.

Note the Apache also has a strict trademark policy - in some ways, stricter than ours:

"'Apache', 'Apache Software Foundation', the multicoloured feather, and the various Apache project names and logos are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation, and are usable by others only with express permission from the ASF."

But to answer your question, there are three main things which make Firefox different:

  • Firefox runs on Windows, it's a consumer product (unlike e.g. Apache), and most of the 130 million plus Firefox users are not geeks
  • Control of someone's browser provides a revenue stream (which is why there are all these "toolbars" and so on floating around
  • Firefox is used for making financial transactions; the browser is the basis of the secure web

These three things combine to make a trojaned Firefox distribution a tempting target for fraudsters. If your mate tells you "Download this Firefox thing, it r0xors!", you'll put "Firefox" into Google and click on the first link you see, accepting any popups you get.

So misuse of the trademark would be a very bad thing indeed.

But hey, this position is not a new one. We've outlined why we think trademark control is important several times. If you want to convince us otherwise, you need to explain why either a) these things are actually not a problem (good luck with that) or b) what other mechanisms we could use prevent them.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 16:45 UTC (Sun) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

Yes, this is what I meant in my earlier comment (I hadn't read this first - my mistake) - many
Firefox users aren't geeks and many are on Windows, therefore they're stupid and wouldn't be
able to tell the difference between Mozilla's Firefox and E Vil Attacker's Firefox... come on!
If you care about being No.1 on Google, try asking for it as part of the payment for making
Google the default search. Do you really think that people who want to trojan Firefox are
going to give a toss about breaking trademark laws in addition to computer misuse ones?

Of course attackers don't care about that already.  The Firefox trademark has little to do
with fraud prevention and lots to do with trying to control friendly distributors for the
greater benefit of the Mozilla Corporation.

Unfortunately, this means that Firefox itself is a trojan: trojan free software.  Articles
often describe it as free software, when most downloads aren't...

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 17:20 UTC (Sun) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

therefore they're stupid and wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Mozilla's Firefox and E Vil Attacker's Firefox... come on!

E Vil Attacker's Firefox is not normally so clearly labelled :-) Without trademark control, it could look and appear to work exactly like the real thing, the web page could look exactly like our download page, they could buy Google ads to promote it and people would be fooled.

If you care about being No.1 on Google, try asking for it as part of the payment for making Google the default search.

And that wouldn't cause a different section of the online community to throw fits? Anyway, Google doesn't do pay-for-placement in the standard results, as far as I know. We do have an agreement with them regarding ads which use our trademarks without permission - but we can only have that because they are our trademarks. If they weren't trademarked, Google would have no legal grounds to refuse the ad.

The Firefox trademark has little to do with fraud prevention and lots to do with trying to control friendly distributors for the greater benefit of the Mozilla Corporation.

Yeah, that's right. The Mozilla Corporation squeezes those friendly distributors for millions of dollars a year based on the force exerted by those trademarks. No, wait, hang on...

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 26, 2007 10:30 UTC (Mon) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

"E Vil Attacker's Firefox is not normally so clearly labelled :-) Without trademark control, it could ..."

And with trademark control, it could do exactly the same things, because E Vil Attacker doesn't give two hoots about any law: trademarks, fraud, computer misuse, it's all vanilla to E. The people who are hindered by Mozilla's trademark are those who respect the law and Mozilla's requests. E Vil Attacker is not one of those and the time Moz Corp wastes on harrassing friendly distributors is time it should be spending stopping E.

"If you care about being No.1 on Google, try asking for it as part of the payment for making Google the default search."

"And that wouldn't cause a different section of the online community to throw fits? Anyway, Google doesn't do pay-for-placement in the standard results, as far as I know. We do have an agreement with them regarding ads which use our trademarks without permission - but we can only have that because they are our trademarks. If they weren't trademarked, Google would have no legal grounds to refuse the ad."

It's not a big leap for Google to do a type of pay-for-place. Look at the top of most results pages: "Sponsored Links".

Also, I'm sure you could still use your trademark to block Google ads. I didn't suggest dropping the trademark: I suggested open-sourcing the brand, or at least providing 100% free software builds by default.

"The Firefox trademark has little to do with fraud prevention and lots to do with trying to control friendly distributors for the greater benefit of the Mozilla Corporation."

"Yeah, that's right. The Mozilla Corporation squeezes those friendly distributors for millions of dollars a year based on the force exerted by those trademarks. No, wait, hang on..."

No, it doesn't seem to be doing it for millions of dollars a year, unless someone is paying that for including their product in the approved set of build options. That might be more understandable. I've no idea what Mozilla Corporation gains from harassing friendly distributors with its current trademark+copyright double-whammy, except domination of some distributors, at least two forks so far, a bad reputation and ridicule at some hacker events.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 26, 2007 15:18 UTC (Mon) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

I didn't suggest dropping the trademark: I suggested open-sourcing the brand

An unfortunate fact of trademark law is that you must actively maintain control of the use of your trademark and the quality of goods issued under it, otherwise you lose the trademark. Thus, there is no such thing as "open-sourcing the brand" while not "dropping the trademark".

I've no idea what Mozilla Corporation gains from harassing friendly distributors with its current trademark+copyright double-whammy

So we've told you why we're doing it; you refuse to accept our reasons, but don't have any other ones (even sinister ones) to suggest?

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 26, 2007 15:51 UTC (Mon) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

Damn straight I refuse to accept your reasons stated here: how does requiring GNU/Linux distributors to ship a less stable, less tested, platform-buggy version until someone at MozCorp OKs backported/up-ported fixes protect Windows users against fraud-trojans? Also, as noted, E Vil Attacker is still free to operate - if anything, more so, as MozCorp wastes its time on controlling friendly distributors instead of policing Attacker's abuse.

"An unfortunate fact of trademark law is that you must actively maintain control of the use of your trademark and the quality of goods issued under it, otherwise you lose the trademark. Thus, there is no such thing as "open-sourcing the brand" while not "dropping the trademark"."

Control of the name is fine (integrity of author's source and all that), but MozCorp requirements seemed to go far beyond that, with unhelpful comments such as "Other vendors (i.e. even Red Hat Enterprise Linux) have chosen to upgrade" when asked whether debian's stable release policy of backporting fixes would be allowed under the trademark (debian bug 354622).

Two current brand open-sourcings are underway: Java and debian. I guess we'll soon see whether you can have both trademark and open-source brand.

Another aspect is that you could have your trademark without restrictive copyright terms over the graphics files.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 26, 2007 19:06 UTC (Mon) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link]

Two current brand open-sourcings are underway: Java and debian. I guess we'll soon see whether you can have both trademark and open-source brand.

Actually, I think you'll find that the Java trademark and brand are very much _not_ being open-sourced. Hence why IcedTea is so called, for example.

"The requirements for the use of the "Java" trademark and name have not changed with the open sourcing of the JDK and Java ME source code." says Sun's FAQ.

Another aspect is that you could have your trademark without restrictive copyright terms over the graphics files.

I do agree with that. And I think that if this problem is ever solved, that's one of the steps needed.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 25, 2007 16:38 UTC (Sun) by slef (subscriber, #14720) [Link]

I think doing so would be a *net* positive change.  As you and I should know by now, I think
we disagree about the relative ability of the Mozilla project to ensure bug-free builds and
the average intelligence of Mozilla users.  As a consequence, we disagree over whether having
the main Mozilla builds being 100% free software is a good idea.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 27, 2007 0:42 UTC (Tue) by josh (guest, #17465) [Link]

A really good evangelical move that Mozilla could make is to provide open-source builds by default and lose the restricted content and name/trademark control-freakery.

They do. See John O'Duinn's original post about them, and responses from MJ Ray and Mike Hommey (the Debian maintainer of Iceweasel). Apart from naming consistency issues (they use the release codename, rather than a fixed name as Debian does), they seem well-received.

An interview with a Mozilla evangelist

Posted Nov 29, 2007 11:56 UTC (Thu) by jfj (guest, #37917) [Link]

That's not what an evangelist is!!

This is a PR/person, Advocator.  An Evangelist is something completely different.  For one, it
requires a project of apocaliptic importance.

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