Weekly Edition
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Quotes of the week
I claim that we'd have a much higher quality kernel if we had a
single central mailing list instead of these elitist fractured
lists. Every kernel topic would have global visibility, and it
would be trivially easy to get the interest of other people, across
subsystems.
-- Ingo Molnar
If it's not reported on linux-scsi, there's a significant chance of
us missing the bug report. The fact that some people notice bugs
go past on LKML and forward them to linux-scsi is a happy accident
and not necessarily something to rely on.
-- James BottomleyLKML has 10-20x the traffic of linux-scsi and a much smaller signal to noise ratio. Having a specialist list where all the experts in the field hang out actually enhances our ability to fix bugs. (Log in to post comments)
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 15, 2007 13:03 UTC (Thu) by walles (guest, #954) [Link] http://bugzilla.kernel.org Haven't read any of those threads, but why don't people (both users and maintainers) use the kernel Bugzilla for kernel bug reports?
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 15, 2007 13:05 UTC (Thu) by axboe (subscriber, #904) [Link] Because clicking through web interfaces is cumbersome and tedious, when compared to email?
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 15, 2007 13:44 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] And bugzilla's search form, yuck. It's the only web form I've ever used that I've had honest-to-goodness nightmares about.
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 15, 2007 15:27 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] It's nasty, alright. But is it worse than searching through email? I think I smell a completely new bug tracking system ahead. This is really no different than the source code management issue. Linus hated CVS and everything else, but his cobbled together solution was not scaling. Pressures built up. A crisis ensued. And we got Git. Linus learns from his mistakes, so I think we can skip the 'bk' phase this time. But I doubt the kernel devs will settle on, or build on, any existing bug tracking tool. They'll write their own. It may be Andrew that takes the initiative to write the foundation of this new "Gitzilla".
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 15, 2007 17:00 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link] There was a huge thread about this on lkml a while ago. Start reading somewhere around: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/4/28/410 http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/19/256 Or not. ;-) Personally I think email is the way to solve most bugs, not Bugzilla or similar things. Because the main force to fix bugs is communication, and that's what email does well and bugzilla doesn't add anything (except a very annoying webinterface with a broken search system).
An unread bugzilla is worse than none at all Posted Nov 15, 2007 17:13 UTC (Thu) by walles (guest, #954) [Link] This is really scary. Regardless of Bugzilla's (possible lack of) usefulness for tracking kernel bugs, having a Bugzilla that the developers don't care about is worse than not having it at all. If the developers don't care about it it should be taken down.
An unread bugzilla is worse than none at all Posted Nov 15, 2007 17:38 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link] Agreed. The problem is that a few devs do use it, so taking it down might provoke some resistance. As long as bug reporters know they should mail to lkml, all is fine. They can post to Bugzilla if a dev asks them that. But posting something to Bugzilla without CC-ing the right people is more likely than not hopeless.
An unread bugzilla is worse than none at all Posted Nov 15, 2007 17:44 UTC (Thu) by walles (guest, #954) [Link] > posting something to Bugzilla without CC-ing the right people is > more likely than not hopeless. :-( In that case the Bugzilla needs a big warning sign on the bug filing page. Do you know why lkml itself isn't CC:ed on all bugs by default?
An unread bugzilla is worse than none at all Posted Nov 15, 2007 17:51 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link] It seems that Andrew Moron reads them all: > No, no subsystem developer needs to monitor new bugzilla reports. This is > because *I do it for them*. I will actively make them aware of new reports > which I believe are legitimate and which contain sufficient information for > them to be able to take further action. At http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/11/13/430 It's about CC'ing the right people, if it's just blindly forwarded to lkml Bugzilla doesn't add anything at all and people could just as well email to lkml directly. Coupling lkml and Bugzilla would move noise in both directions, I don't think it would be a good idea (not bad maybe, but not good either).
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 16, 2007 19:38 UTC (Fri) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link] Having a broken search system is a very different thing to having an overly-complex one. The latter can be handled by simple search forms (e.g. http://bugzilla.kernel.org/query.cgi?format=specific , which no-one should be having nightmares about). If you meant the former, evidence (e.g. searches which should turn up a particular bug and don't) would be appreciated. Gerv
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 16, 2007 21:54 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] I'll hasten to add that it's not the form itself that gives me nightmares: it's the combination of option overload and the way that there are about eighty million items in each of those listboxes, and that multiple selection actually *matters*, and, well, finger slips on mouse and oopsy, you've got to select all the options in *that* listbox again... Admittedly we're hampered here by the crudity of the web ui widget set: but why oh why isn't there a native X / Swing / *something* bugzilla query client using a richer widget set and a correspondingly less hideous search box? :/ (yeah, I know, I'm moaning without having done a whit of work towards it, so I don't really have a right to moan, but it's Friday evening here so it's time to use up my weekend moan allotment early.)
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 16, 2007 22:16 UTC (Fri) by gerv (subscriber, #3376) [Link] the way that there are about eighty million items in each of those listboxes Well, that's the choice of the Bugzilla admin :-) I agree multiple selection in Web UI widgets sucks, but really, who picks precisely 21 of the 76 products and searches across those? 99% of the time, you either do a global search, or pick one product. but why oh why isn't there a native X / Swing / *something* bugzilla query client using a richer widget set and a correspondingly less hideous search box? :/ Ask, and ye shall receive. Here are five things like that to choose from.
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 16, 2007 22:34 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] Oh cool, thank you! I should have expected that someone would already have written something like this, but my google-fu deserted me. :)
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 24, 2007 17:30 UTC (Sat) by cras (guest, #7000) [Link] A while ago I was thinking about a bug tracking system for Dovecot which was mainly based on mailing list archives. I'm still not using a BTS, so maybe some day I'll actually get it implemented. http://www.dovecot.org/list/dovecot/2007-January/018786.html explains it a bit.
Dovecot's BTS Posted Nov 24, 2007 20:21 UTC (Sat) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link] I'm not sure, but it looks like overkill. Too complicated for what you really want I think. Adding a bug number is useless, because the number doesn't add any information. Can as wel just use the subject line. Priority is as far as I can judge rarely used in any way constructive way in reality. At best it's the order in which the bugs will be fixed by the dev, but that can be a private list too. Same for status. What else is needed other than "[BUG] Bla broken [FIXED]"? The bug is open until FIXED shows up in the subject line, it's being investigated when people reply to it, and being handled when a dev replied to it. Devs probably want to keep all kind of info in notes for bugs, but no need to stuff such kind of info into IMAP annotations. So I think that just parsing the subject lines for certain keywords is plenty. Perhaps comparing senders with a list of devs to know what the person's role is too, but not much else.
What's wrong with the Bugzilla? Posted Nov 22, 2007 16:02 UTC (Thu) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link] I wrote a blog a while ago about the KDE bugzilla. I think the kernel people have it right. http://digested.blogspot.com/2005_09_01_archive.html Derek
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