I wonder how it's possible to misread it so bad...
Posted Oct 4, 2007 13:22 UTC (Thu) by khim
In reply to: The most important problem was omitted entirely - from article and you reasoning too
Parent article: Yet another male perspective on women in free software
You stereotype male OSS-participators as being "ostracized and rejected for years", a stereotype that never applied to all of us, indeed I strongly suspect it doesn't even apply for the majority.
Please explain to me where I've talked about majority of FOSS developers. I've explicitly talked about "people who have themselves been rejected by and excluded from wider society, in many cases, at a young age". And only about them. If you want full story... It applies to may be 3-5% of FOSS developers. May be even less. It's enough. It's more then enough.
The story goes this way:
1. Normal person "A" (often a woman) comes in and politely asks something.
2. Jerk of the community "B" explains how wrong this fucker (or bitch) is and where he (or she) should shove her ideas.
3. "A" is offended and is trying to make jerk behave.
4. Silent majority either does nothing or supports "B" (he's a jerk, but he's our jerk).
5. At some point question is escalated to explicit: "A" or "B". Here the cases diverge: sometimes (rare) "silent majority" stops being silent and "B" is reined in. But in a lot of cases "silent majority" either persist in being silent or explicitly explain why "A" is in the wrong here ("B" is valuable contributor here while "A" did nothing so far so of course we'll pick "B", what do you expect).
6. "A" says "good buy" and leaves. Game over.
You go on to compound that by claiming this is because we "lack tact" and "ignore manners".
Yup. The people in question often lack tact and ignore manners. True. Again: where have I said that all people in FOSS lack tact and ignore manners ?
I don't recognize myself in either of these characterisations either, and suspect it's the kind of thing you -wouldn't- say to anyones face.
To the person who indeed lacks tact and ignore manners ? In a heartbeat. They will not understand any allegories.
You then claim, indirectly, that FOSS communities generally "reject all normal people who are insisting on using manners and tact", another gross insult.
It may be insult, but it's a fact. I do not say it's what FOSS communities are trying to do. It's the end result.
Did you ever consider that if it's sexist to make general statements *negative* towards women, then it's equally sexist to do the reverse ?
Is it sexist to agree with what women themselves say ? The women who are less social then average (rare as they are) are participating in FOSS already.
If it's unacceptable and insulting to generally state that, for example, women are less technically competent, why is it then OK to state, like you just did, that men are less socially competent ?
It's acceptable and not insulting to say the truth. Women are less technically competent in average and men are less socially competent in average. We can try to change this and make women more technically competent and men more socially competent and may be in the future situation will change, but right it's how things stay.
I'm in favor of normal politeness in general (though not in favor of putting politeness above truth in general), but please, if that's what you're preaching: atleast consider following your own advice.
Who said I preach this ? I just explain what all these "let's make FOSS communities more comfortable for women" campaigns lack. I myself is perfectly happy with current situation, but if we truly do want to bring more women in FOSS then "jerks in FOSS" (yup - including me) must be weeded out or reformed. And to achieve this "the silent majority" must decide that it'd worth it and act accordingly. Note that these "jerks from FOSS" include a lot of high-profile guys (like Linus and RMS) so it'll not be easy.
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