The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal) [LWN.net]

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 10, 2007 21:21 UTC (Fri) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

we know that the N770 had closed drivers. I've also seen some reports that said that in the N800 at least some of those drivers were replaced with open drivers.

if you are going to slam the N800 for using closed drivers could you please identify (or point at a site that identifies) what drivers are closed?

depending on what functions require the closed drivers I may decide that I can live without them and get one anyway.

with the 770 you couldn't boot the system without closed drivers, so it wasn't an option, the N800 is different (and companies can learn from their mistakes) so we need to find what the situation is with it.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 10, 2007 22:21 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

The reason that the closed drivers on the 770 are a problem is that Nokia discontinued support, after a rather short time. That means that any buyer is permanently stuck with any flaws, including security holes.

I had been considering buying an 800, but after seeing how quickly support for the 770 was dropped, I was taken aback.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 10, 2007 22:25 UTC (Fri) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

right, but if the N800 doesn't have closed drivers (or only has them for devices you can live without) then it won't matter nearly as much when Nokia drops support for the device.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 10, 2007 22:50 UTC (Fri) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]

It still has closed drivers. Since the Linux guys keep changing the API, closed drivers mean you can't update the kernel (though you can try to backport bug fixes) once Nokia stops the support.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 10, 2007 23:01 UTC (Fri) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]

you can't upgrade the kernel without loosing the functionality the drivers provide.

but this may be acceptable, it all depends on what that functionality is (if you loose access to the camera but everything else works most people wouldn't care much for example)

can anyone identify what closed source drivers are in use?

and why don't some of the people who keep crying that closed source modules are illegal go after them to get the source for those modules?

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 11, 2007 4:01 UTC (Sat) by mhw (subscriber, #13931) [Link]

One of the object files needed by the N800's 802.11 network driver is
binary-only. It can only be used with certain kernel versions, and
with certain configuration options.

Also, the battery charging application is binary-only. The associated
kernel driver is thin, requiring logic that lives only in userspace
and is not publicly documented.

There may be other problems as well, but these are the most important
ones I know about.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 11, 2007 23:46 UTC (Sat) by net_bh (subscriber, #28735) [Link]

>One of the object files needed by the N800's 802.11 network driver is
>binary-only. It can only be used with certain kernel versions, and
>with certain configuration options.

And Openmoko's approach was to not ship with WLAN at all IIRC.
(http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-Januar...)
The key being "power-efficient", of course.

>Also, the battery charging application is binary-only. The associated
>kernel driver is thin, requiring logic that lives only in userspace
>and is not publicly documented.

And Openmoko planned that for A-GPS -
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-Decemb...

Sean Moss-Pultz puts it very succintly in the above link, give it a read - "Vendors price and support their components based on volume. The promise of an innovative product alone is not very persuasive. I can go to a vendor now, telling them about the potential of OpenMoko and say, "allow me to GPL your driver." They will end our negotiations before things even begin."

It is very easy to get onto the ideological high pedestal and bash a company that just wants to do business. Perhaps, if you went about doing a small exercise and tried to develop an equivalent device (on paper) with completely free software, you _might_ see the problem.

That's not to say that Nokia is perfect. But they needed to start somewhere.

What Openmoko is doing is admirable indeed and if they succeed (or have already succeeded) in solving these issues, more power to them. Until then, playing the volumes game is the best way to convince vendors to open specs IMHO. Every battle isn't worth fighting.

/Amit (ex-Nokia)

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 11, 2007 7:50 UTC (Sat) by oak (subscriber, #2786) [Link]

You do know that OpenMoko (and OLPC) use several of the things which Nokia
has supported (Matchbox, Gtk, D-BUS etc) and contributed (tools like
Xephyr)?

As to friend of Open Source, Nokia's platform is not as open as OpenMoko /
OLPC, but I wouldn't define a friend only as somebody who does everything
like me and uses only my stuff, people who help you might also be counted
as friends...

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 14, 2007 12:24 UTC (Tue) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]

I read the comment you mentioned. It basically says that Nokia ships some pieces of proprietary code in 770. Well, I have one comment about that: boo-frigging-hoo.

Nokia supports free and open source software when it makes sense to them. Yes, that means that they are not gung-ho about it everywhere and all the time. And no, that doesn't mean that they are "enemy" of free software.

Fact is that Nokia has created a popular piece of consumer-electronics that runs Linux. That act alone brought Linux to the hands of thousands of people and that is a Good Thing (tm). They have also supported various pieces of free software (like the windowmanager that is used on 770 and N800. They have also provided patches to the kernel. All those things are Good Things and they have made Linux better.

As to Nokia not supporting 770... Well, I would like to see some industrious third-party release a new OS for the device. I mean, if we can get Linux running on iPaqs and iPods, why not do the same for 770?

As to 770 being "obsolete".... I use mine just about every single day. I wish someone had told me that it's "obsolete", so I could have stopped using that obsolete piece of junk! It doesn't feel obsolete, but it obviously is because someone on the internet said so.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 14, 2007 18:24 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

> boo-frigging-hoo. Nokia supports free and open source software when it makes sense to them.

> Well, I would like to see some industrious third-party release a new OS for the device. I mean, if we can get Linux running on iPaqs and iPods, why not do the same for 770?

Are you joking?? Erm, maybe it's because the 770 has closed bits?

To spell it out: unless someone devotes a lot of their own time to reverse enginering, only Nokia can produce an OS for the 770. You do realize this, right?

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 15, 2007 13:06 UTC (Wed) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link]

"Are you joking??"

"Erm, maybe it's because the 770 has closed bits?"

Then eliminate those bits. Either drop them completely or work around them. Linux has been ported to just about everything, and now you claim that it could not be "ported" to a device that is already running Linux?

"To spell it out: unless someone devotes a lot of their own time to reverse enginering, only Nokia can produce an OS for the 770. You do realize this, right?"

And that reverse-engineering has been done countless times before, what's different this time? Or if that reverse-engineering is too much trouble, simple drop those bits.

The Ultimate Linux Handheld (Linux Journal)

Posted Aug 15, 2007 16:24 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

> Either drop them completely or work around them.

The flasher and the root FS? You can't drop them so, yes, people are working around them.

http://www.nopcode.org/0xFFFF/
http://osmtc.indt.org/projects/mamona

It just takes a long time. It might go quicker if you would help out.

Reverse engineering is *hard*. Not many people like spending time trying to get Linux running on a device that, as you say, already runs Linux.