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Where have the universities gone?Where have the universities gone?Posted Jul 24, 2007 19:44 UTC (Tue) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216)Parent article: Where have the universities gone?
Computer science graduates these days (it seems) aren't what they used to be--at least in my experience. I've known several recent CS graduates who are quite proficient Java coders, but had no idea how to partition a hard disk. Call me a graybearded codger if you will, but a CS graduate who can't reinstall their own machine is a pretty sad artifact.
I attribute this to the narrow focus of a lot of CS departments these days; they seem to emphasize specific software package use skills (frequently those from and promoted by a certain company from Redmond), rather than the "liberal arts" education that CS used to be--teaching the subject with a broad brush, starting from fundamentals. The focus is on collecting buzzwords to put on a resume rather than real understanding of the subject. Very sad.
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Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 24, 2007 21:29 UTC (Tue) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] I'm a recentish (well, five years ago) CS graduate, and boy howdy, can I relate to this. I wasastounded, while in school, by the number of fellow CS students who had no interest in learning about computers beyond what was being taught in the classes. A lot of them became Java codemonkeys, but lacked experience with other languages and environments. In many cases, they wanted to get jobs as developers, but weren't interested in the science of computation for its own sake.
The best programmers in my classes, in my (admittedly biased) opinion, were the ones who
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 24, 2007 22:17 UTC (Tue) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] Larval stage is still a necessary rite of passage--otherwise you're merely a PHB in training. :)
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 25, 2007 2:20 UTC (Wed) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] Indeed! I spent a good long time in it.
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 25, 2007 1:08 UTC (Wed) by JoeF (guest, #4486) [Link] The best programmers in my classes, in my (admittedly biased) opinion, were the ones who found computers and computing interesting in themselves; the geeks who, when they found out I was teaching myself Forth and Lisp just for the sake of understanding them, showed an interest in joining me, rather than asking "Why would you do that? There's no money in that these days."When people say that, I point to Paul Graham, who made a fortune with an Internet store system written in Lisp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 25, 2007 2:22 UTC (Wed) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] Very true, although I did not know about that at the time. But I didn't start learning Lisp or Forth(or Python, or the ins and outs of Linux) for monetary reasons; that's just a side benefit.
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 25, 2007 7:00 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] Exactly the point. I don't feel compelled to answer that kind of remark, because I really just don't care. I hack on free software because I *like it* and I *believe in it*, not because it enriches me. Heck, it's probably actually done the opposite, if you count the opportunity cost. Oh well. :)
One has to make a living, it's true, but that's not the only reason for doing something. People have been plucking, screeching, whistling, hammering, and hollering away at music for quite a long time, just for the fun of it, not because they want to be the next U2 or Weezer or Whitney Houston (G*d help us), while working day jobs at the same time. They make the sacrifice of their spare time because they want to create something, to express themselves. In times past (before the all-rights-reserved meme infected the planet) they frequently would pass their works around and teach others to play them as well, because music only lives when people play it, and if only one person plays it, it pretty soon dies away. In the same way, people have also been hacking at software since the machines first crawled out of the slime, not necessarily because it made them wealthy (you need other skills for that) but because they found it enjoyable and challenging. Sometimes people happen to become wealthy through the exercise of their hacking or musical skills, but that's more an accident of fortunate coincidence and audacity than destiny. OK, I'll stop rambling now.
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 25, 2007 8:20 UTC (Wed) by jmoellers (subscriber, #29863) [Link] > People have been plucking, screeching, whistling, hammering, and hollering> away at music for quite a long time, just for the fun of it, not because > they want to be the next U2 or Weezer or Whitney Houston (G*d help us), [...] > Sometimes people happen to become wealthy through the exercise of their > hacking or musical skills, but that's more an accident of fortunate > coincidence and audacity than destiny.
Sadly enough, the current trend in (pop) music pretty much shows the point: Artists are nowadays casted, they are *made* rather than grown!
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 26, 2007 11:48 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] When people say that, I point to Paul Graham, who made a fortune with an Internet store system written in LispTrue, but the case is so isolated as to be the exception rather than the rule. Who cares anyway, at work I use Java but at home I only hack in Python.
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 26, 2007 18:39 UTC (Thu) by PaulMcKenney (subscriber, #9624) [Link] I saw the same thing several decades ago. Most people wanted to do the minimum necessary to get their degree, preferably with a decent GPA. A very few were interested in really honing their skills beyond what the curriculum required. This was the case both in Computer Science and in Mechanical Engineering, and I suspect that this has always been the case in almost all fields of study.
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 26, 2007 19:59 UTC (Thu) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] Tragic, but what can you do except try to advocate the alternative by example?
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 26, 2007 20:13 UTC (Thu) by PaulMcKenney (subscriber, #9624) [Link] (1) As you say, lead by example.
(2) When people ask you what they need to do to be successful, tell them that they need to not merely learn about their field, but to also become fluent in the practice of their field. In other words, you need to have mastered the basics to the point where it just flows. Typing, working the editor, producing the code, ...
People who are in a position to hire or otherwise select contributors have other tools at their disposal.
(Full disclosure: I split the difference, going quite a ways beyond the curriculum in computer science, but not so much so in mechanical engineering.)
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 24, 2007 23:32 UTC (Tue) by bugmenotplease (guest, #45475) [Link] You make the mistake thinking that computer science has something to do with computers (or worse, programming).
computer science vs. computers Posted Jul 25, 2007 1:54 UTC (Wed) by stevenj (subscriber, #421) [Link] A friend of mine in CS likes to say that the part of computer science that is about computers isn't a science, and the part that is a science isn't about computers.
computer science vs. computers Posted Jul 27, 2007 18:48 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link] Edsger Dijkstra, the greatest software scientist that ever lived, said: "Computer science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes."I agree, but we all know that a "computer science" undergraduate education is mainly intended, and implemented, as software engineering vocational training.
Where have the universities gone? Posted Jul 27, 2007 11:22 UTC (Fri) by dps (subscriber, #5725) [Link] I was a while ago, but I have 3 degrees in CS (BA, MSc and PhD). None of them either featured operating system installation or the use of specific software to any significant degree. Oxford university is still a major theory center their dergees reflect this and concentrate on formal methods. A typical item included in the course is moderately complete treatment of CSP, which can be used to analyse parallel systems.
Pushed to the limit you can do theoretical CS without ever using a computer, although most people are required do their own typing.
Incidently I have used CSP in anger. My PhD thesis states a component design and proves a deadlock freedom result about those component connected in any way whatsoever (which can include any sort of cycles). You can find a lightweight implentation of the design on sourceforge. Currently documentation is limited to the appropriate sections of my PhD thesis and a set of man pages.
My first linux box ran SLS 1.03 (kernel 0.99pl13 or earlier) and was a "high spec" box (486DX2/50 with 8Mb of memory).
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