Totally "free" Ubuntu? That's the plan for Gobuntu (Linux.com) [LWN.net]

Totally "free" Ubuntu? That's the plan for Gobuntu (Linux.com)

Posted Jul 15, 2007 18:24 UTC (Sun) by njs (guest, #40338)
In reply to: Totally "free" Ubuntu? That's the plan for Gobuntu (Linux.com) by sbergman27
Parent article: Totally "free" Ubuntu? That's the plan for Gobuntu (Linux.com)

> And I'm still asking how letting the user make an *informed* decision about the software loaded on his own machine can possibly be considered *less* Free than arrogantly *forcing* an inferior, or nonworking system upon him "for his own good".

Straw man. Nobody is holding users down and forcing them to install Linux. If someone wants to use a proprietary system, we can hardly stop them (trying to do so would be... ethically problematic). And barring radical changes in copyright law, proprietary systems will always be there.

The question is what sort of alternative we want to spend our time developing, supporting, and advocating. The fact that users have an option to use proprietary components does not oblige us to give those components free advertising.

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Totally "free" Ubuntu? That's the plan for Gobuntu (Linux.com)

Posted Jul 15, 2007 20:48 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]

It's only a straw man argument if I am attributing a position to others which they do not actually hold.

In the sense that while a nontechnical user, meaning most users, might get a modern distro installed, they are not up to locating and installing, say, NVidia's driver without help from the distro. Without that driver their machine is broken. 3D doesn't work at all. In that sense, I *do* believe that people are advocating that nontechnical users be manipulated into doing what certain parties want them to do, namely, accepting a broken machine rather than using a propretary driver, by taking advantage of the user's lack of technical finesse.

And yes, I agree that doing so is ethically problematic. That is why I don't like it.

Totally "free" Ubuntu? That's the plan for Gobuntu (Linux.com)

Posted Jul 17, 2007 21:41 UTC (Tue) by h2 (guest, #27965) [Link]

Your argument is in fact a complete strawman, and I'm surprised you keep pushing it. Why? Very simple: gobuntu is not being marketed as the next ubuntu at all. Users will not be pushed to it, it is more of a proof of concept, designed to deliver, along with a standard ubuntu relese, a fully free one.

The only users I would expect to use this are users who are interested in seeing what a fully free desktop runs like on their hardware, and users who actually know and understand what a fully free desktop is, and why they want it. Aunt millie will not be running this.

This is a proof of concept as I understand it, as well as Ubuntu showing, I think, an awareness, and a willingness, to explore how working in a fully free environment will function.

The way you've been arguing in this thread readers would think that ubuntu is about to release a fully free desktop as their only option for their next release, thus forcing users into a situation of having non-functioning hardware. If this were true, your argument would be correct, but it's not true, and your argument is in fact a total strawman. Why you feel the need to expend so much energy pushing a point that isn't even under consideration is beyond me, but it's not particularly surprising given what I've seen in these pages recently.

Don't worry, grandma and aunt millie won't be running a fully free desktop, but ubuntu will be making one for those people who do want to do that. A matter of free choice, that is.

This goes along with the new Ubuntu tool that lets users see what parts of their systems are in fact non-free software. That is just a tool, to let people know what their systems are actually doing. I'm not a particular Ubuntu fan, but I think Mark's heart is in the right place this time on this set of projects, it's a good idea, and it helps lay the foundation for a future, more fully free, desktop. But it does not force users who do not want to explore what that will look like to use it. By no means.

Personally, I do not understand why some posters here react in such a defensive manner when it comes to the fsf, I talk to those guys sometimes, I admire their ethics and commitment, and if I decide to use some non free stuff to do task x or y, until free replacements for x or y appear, I am secure enough to not have to worry about what the fsf thinks, while still being able to respect that level of principle they have day to day. I don't have to pick the current extreme positions, 'pragmatic' vs 'principled', I can see the value in both. And I do things myself that are basically pragmatic, to help normal users come into a more free desktop. But even if I make these decisions, it doesn't then make me automatically unable to respect the more principled position of the fsf people. And I most certainly don't find it at all annoying. Even if I am not currently going to that point with my own stuff.