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Google, why notGoogle, why notPosted May 23, 2007 8:50 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091)In reply to: Google ? by khim Parent article: A day at the Open Source Business Conference
Now I'm not sure it's good that GPL allows this kind of behavior, but it just look ridiculous to first allow private modifications and after that complain that patches are not returned back...The GPLv2 was released in 1992, which was a different world: no internet, no HTML, client-server largely meant in-house... Nowadays "private modifications" might even have a different meaning, as "something you modify exclusively for your internal use". Google modifications are quite public in the sense that many people feel their effects. I don't know either if it is good to embed this feeling in a license. As xoddam says above, an appeal to their conscience might be a better strategy. Google is a good citizen, but compare them to Sun who is an outstanding citizen: Sun takes the initiative to make lots of their own software free software.
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Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 9:38 UTC (Wed) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] The recent arguments about the GPL3's Tivoization and patent clauses will seem like a picnic compared to what will happen when you say "if you use modified GPL'd software to produce a report for someone, then you *must* publish those modifications."
Thankfully the Afferro licence is a separate licence, and so reduced to niche status.
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 17:08 UTC (Wed) by amikins (guest, #451) [Link] Hasn't it always been held that the output of a program generally can't be considered a 'derived work' unless it somehow contains some portion of the original work? If it's not a derived work, then how can the license of the original work hold any relevance to the output?
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 17:26 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Nobody says that the output is a derived work. But since you are giving a license to your copyrighted work, and distribution is essentially forbidden in copyright law, you can limit distribution to whatever conditions you want. That is how the Affero Public License can do its job. Quoting from it:You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works. These actions are prohibited by law if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the Program or works based on it.So, can you request in a license that distribution be performed only by specialists in Sanskrit Literature while they dance the Conga? Essentially, yes (although that would probably remove it from all free software or open source definitions). Can you request that programs run in private machines but accessed by people outside your organization be distributed only with source code? By all means. Whether you should do it is a different question.
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 17:47 UTC (Wed) by amikins (guest, #451) [Link] I have no arguments with you on distribution, I agree fully with what you've stated in reference to that. My issue is, if the program is run on a private machine accessible by people outside your organization.. Are you _distributing_ anything? To me, it looks like the only thing distributed is the output, not the program itself.My question is not whether you should require source distribution in such a context.. My question is whether you _can_. Requesting is not the same as requiring, and I'm really curious as to where the law stands on this. Does 'copyright' come into play when making modifications that don't involve distribution? To me it seems it would not, making the license irrelevant if the software itself stays within the organization.
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 18:37 UTC (Wed) by AJWM (guest, #15888) [Link] It's not a question of distribution. As soon as you modify a program you have created a derived work, which is prohibited by copyright without the owner's permission.
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 19:23 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Against your argument it could seem that modification without distribution is different from distribution, and does not apply here; that is why I can sing my own version of "My way" (my "my way", if you will) in the shower without violating any laws. Well, I don't know about US law, but here in Spain software follows a completely different set of rule than artistic works.The GPL FAQ is very lax about distribution "within your organization"; you can distribute a program without restrictions within your corporation, non-profit organization, and so on. You will find that copyright law is not so lax; you cannot make "private" copies within your organization, and even the number of personal copies for backup is limited. It has even been argued (this time in the US) that "running" a program is "distribution", since you are making a "copy" in memory of the software. Few people associated with free software want to tread that rute, but it is quite clear that distributing within your organization without a license is a big no-no. Engineers would be forced to distribute code + patches and modify the original locally, which would not be the most convenient arrangement one can conceive -- even if Google is sure to find a way to automate it complying with the license at the same time. Gentoo could probably use some of those tools... if they ever see the light of day. Sigh. Too circular even for my liking.
Fair use Posted May 24, 2007 0:44 UTC (Thu) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] > I can sing my own version of "My way" (my "my way", if you will)> in the shower without violating any laws.
I am *certain* that this is covered by "fair use" in any reasonable
Your neighbours may complain about noise pollution, but that's
Fair use Posted May 24, 2007 6:23 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] I don't think we have this "fair use" in Spanish law, although I'm certainly not a lawyer. The law regulates private performances:The communication will not be considered public when it is performed in a strictly domestic scope which is not integrated or connected to a network of any kind.So if I had a webcam in my shower (even if it is strictly private) a guy might show up and require payment. Your neighbours may complain about noise pollution, but that's a separate matter!Hey, I do what I can! :D
Fair use Posted Jun 1, 2007 8:52 UTC (Fri) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link] > Your neighbours may complain about noise
pollution, but that's It's not. Public performances are controlled by copyright. If you intentionally give a public performance (i.e. not in your shower, unless you put the video on YouTube), you need the copyright holder's agreement. Putting a program for everybody's use on a web server is probably the equivalent of "public performance". The law possibly doesn't say anything about "public performance" of programs (because literally, this would mean "read the source code out aloud" or something like that), so it's not a well-defined legal term. Therefore, the Affero license goes through the "modification" clause. After all, if you run an unmodified program, the source is available, anyway.
Google, why not Posted May 25, 2007 13:40 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] "The GPL FAQ is very lax about distribution "within your organization"; you can distribute a program without restrictions within your corporation, non-profit organization, and so on."
Actually, I think this is inherent in the GPL. Since the corporation is providing copies only to itself, it only has obligations with respect to itself. That is, it has to provide itself the source, if asked, and grant itself any patent license it already holds. Both of those are, obviously empty implications.
I think the GPL FAQ you cite is probably wrong in its last paragraph (it says that providing copies to contractors for use off-site is distribution). I think a company that showed that it had rules requiring that such copies be treated as loans of the company's property and returned on completion of the contract, coupled with reasonable auditing to make sure that that happened, would be hard to attack in court under the terms of the license. Since ownership of the copies remained with the company, only the company would be entitled to the rights required under the GPL. [But, IANAL]
Google, why not Posted May 25, 2007 14:38 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Actually, I think this is inherent in the GPL. Since the corporation is providing copies only to itself, it only has obligations with respect to itself. That is, it has to provide itself the source, if asked, and grant itself any patent license it already holds. Both of those are, obviously empty implications.I don't think so. A corporation that distributes or modifies software has obligations not to downstream receivers but to the owner of the copyright. This owner might set whatever requirements it saw fit, as for example "distribute source code upon request to any users, local or remote, of the software". In the case of the GPL the owner sees fit to set requirements for modifications only to outside distribution, but this is only in the FAQ and not in the license itself. (I didn't know this, by the way.) So your rights for "internal distribution" are not as clear-cut as those in the GPL itself. In fact, the FSF might change the FAQ tomorrow if they see it fit and restate this paragraph, which would open a lot of entities to being sued. Basically, anyone who modifies and distributes a GPL program. Funny, isn't it? I think the GPL FAQ you cite is probably wrong in its last paragraph (it says that providing copies to contractors for use off-site is distribution).Imagine that you have a corporate license for a Microsoft program, and you want to distribute it to off-site contractors. Would you think it is wrong for the license to state that you cannot do it? Hardly, even if the company has strict rules and auditing and whatnot. Copyright law doesn't entitle you to internal nor external distribution, so your only way to do it is the license, in this case the GPL and the FAQ. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't even rely on the FAQ, but I guess you might argue you have "acquired rights". IANAL either.
Google, why not Posted May 25, 2007 16:13 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] I hope I put this all in the context of the GPL, not general copyright law. Absent the license, copyright would clearly prohibit making internal copies.
In the terms of the GPL, however, I believe what I said was correct. The GPL establishes the grant of permissions and hte responsibilities associated with them and those seem to me to allow internal distribution because such distribution is already meeting the requirements of the license (and, thereby, your responsibilities to the copyright owner).
The FAQ has no legal force, so changing it would not in any way affect the terms of the license.
Again, note that I am only talking in the context of the current license terms. The GPL could be rewriten to limit internal distribution, since that is a right reserved to the copyright holder. I am simply saying that under the current terms, internal distribution does not need to be considered specially - it's just like any other distribution.
Google, why not Posted May 25, 2007 15:09 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] On second thought, forget about my earlier post. You are right that from the current version of the GPL it follows that you can distribute a program internally, with or without modifications. A change in the FAQ would not mean anything.The GPL itself would have to be changed a lot to close the "ASP loophole"; for example, distribution of modified copies would have to be coupled to distribution of source code to users. It would be a mess, and maybe it is why they haven't gone that way with GPLv3.
Google, why not Posted May 31, 2007 12:47 UTC (Thu) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link] "Does 'copyright' come into play when making modifications that don't involve distribution?"
Copyright law comes into play when you make... wait for it... copies. (Not intended to be mean, just a bit of fun...)
Isn't that all that is needed? Law wise...
all the best,
drew
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 11:41 UTC (Wed) by jeroen (subscriber, #12372) [Link] As far as I know Google actually never released any significant program they wrote as Free Software. Google Earth, Picasa, SketchUp, Google Desktop, etc. It's all proprietary and most of time it only runs on that proprietary OS. Their appliances are probably full of proprietary software too.
Is google a good citizen? If you look at the software they are using themself, they are using the freedom to modify the software and contribute back a lot. But it doesn't seem they want to give that freedom to the users of their software. And IMHO that's a bad thing.
Google, why not Posted May 23, 2007 17:15 UTC (Wed) by amikins (guest, #451) [Link] For some of that, there's some legal constraints outside their control. For instance, Google Earth makes use of data they don't control, and their own contracts prohibit them from allowing access to that data without prevention to ensure the data doesn't escape.For others, I can't say offhand, but if it's their software in entirety, they have a right to do with it as they like. They're a service company, and that's how they make their money. That they provide so many services at effectively no cost and try to assist with the community at so many other points is, in my opinion, to be commended.
Google, why not Posted May 24, 2007 12:45 UTC (Thu) by RobSeace (subscriber, #4435) [Link] > 1992, which was a different world: no internet
Um, I recall being rather heavily addicted to the Internet in college in 1992 (and earlier), so I can assure you it certainly existed then... ;-)
Google, why not Posted May 24, 2007 19:30 UTC (Thu) by leoc (subscriber, #39773) [Link] Yeah, it was about 92 when I got my first internet address, found usenet and got into my first flame war. We have come so far since then!
Google, why not Posted May 24, 2007 20:28 UTC (Thu) by jeffw (guest, #45419) [Link] True, perhaps, but the general case of "application service providers" or "software as a service" has always been around. Arguably, ignoring PCs, it is the most frequently occurring type of software use.
H&R Block started Compuserve in the 1960s to sell computer time on their big systems outside of tax season. The Multics project was started in the 1960s specifically to develop software to run a "computer utility". Tangentially, even Centrex vs PBXs.
Assuming that the "ASP Crisis" exists at all - it is a direct result of the license. Yes the legal situation has changed, and the GPL needs to be updated to reflect the reality in 2007, and the reality globally. But the ASP problem has been around for ever - RMS diddnt need to foresee it back in '92. - it was there. That he diddnt see it is an indication that he isnt quite as perfect as some would like you to believe.
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