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More FUD, and double-edged at that

More FUD, and double-edged at that

Posted May 14, 2007 9:20 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083)
Parent article: Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

This is just Microsoft FUD, but also double-edged FUD that can seriously damage Microsoft later:

235 patents in total:

42 in the kernel
65 in the GUI
45 in OOo
15 in email clients
68 in others

The first question to be asked in any court is: given that the Linux-related source code is written separately mostly by people with no relation to Microsoft, how can these patents be valid non-obvious ones if independent coders can invent them themselves? And the follow-up question: just what proportion of your patent portfolio is as weak as these patents?

But we all know that these patents will never see the inside of a court room - MS is just interested in FUD, not actual enforcement.


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That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 10:03 UTC (Mon) by coriordan (subscriber, #7544) [Link]

Just because a second person had the same idea, that doesn't mean the idea was too obvious to be patentable.

With patents, after your application is approved, anyone who implements that idea (or who has implemented it since you application was first filed!) is an infringer of your patent.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 10:23 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

Just because a second person had the same idea, that doesn't mean the idea was too obvious to be patentable.

Correct, but it certainly raises questions that MS might not want to answer.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 12:42 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Which questions? Ciaran is right, nobody will question the patent system because of that. Remember Elisha Gray? The poor guy got to the patent office with his telephone invention just hours after Bell had patented the same thing. That does not make the patent any more obvious or the process any more flawed.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 16:34 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

It does make sense that two guys can independently and simultaneously invent something. But when some "invention" is done in passing and second "independent inventor" does not even realize it's "invention"... this cast the doubt on the quality of said patent. Big time. It does not mean that the patent if bogus, but it certainly looks strange...

After all patent must be novel and non-obvious. If someone invented the thing and not even realized that it's worth something... how can it be non-obvious ? Are all Linux developers geniuses ?

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 16:45 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Good point. However, I'm not sure the argument would fly too far before it is shot down... After all, Linux developers (Torvalds, famously) are known for being geniuses, releasing code freely, ideologically being against software patents, supporting copyleft, and being raving communists... erm, this last part is bogus ;)

In short, GNU/Linux developers (kernel+userspace) will be pictured as giving their work away and being against the holy Intellectual Property trinity (copyright, patents and trade marks), even if it is not exactly true. So nobody will be surprised that they do not patent their inventions.

More FUD, and double-edged at that

Posted May 14, 2007 17:06 UTC (Mon) by lmb (subscriber, #39048) [Link]

The question it does raise though is that, if they know which patents are affected, why they are not contacting the supposedly infringing parties after they as patent holders have become aware of it. Does that not make a potential law suit rather more difficult if they have to explain why they "tolerated" such for months and years?

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:12 UTC (Mon) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]

Patents don't work like that. While trademarks must be protected or else lost, patent
violations may be freely ignored without diminishing your power to enforce when you want
to.

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:37 UTC (Mon) by lmb (subscriber, #39048) [Link]

Thanks for clarifying that. It confirms my opinion about the usefulness of patents as they are; they seem to be designed by someone in love with smoke, mirrors and FUD. Sigh.

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:57 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Not really. Patents are created to better protect inventor. Inventor can be single person and if s/he has no resources to monitor all firms in existence - it's Ok. If someone is using your patented invention without patent - you can collect money for old violations easily. But if you do know about violation and do nothing - you effectively Ok this usage (Rambus DDR patents). You can change patent policy at any time - but again even this way has limitations (see Phillis CD patents for example). In short: once you've declared that you know that someone is violations your patent - better to act quick.

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:49 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

There are differences and there are similarities. You can sit as long as you wish on your patents without losing them - but only if you can cite good reason for doing so (ignorance is good reason). Once you have a list - clock is ticking. After some time old violations can be declared too old, but new ones will be upheld. See Unisys and GIF fiasco: old violations were forgiven easily (Unisys had no real choice due to Doctrine of Latches), but new versions of the same programs required patent license.

If Microsoft's patents are real and valid then each day of delay is costing them money.

request for disclosure

Posted May 15, 2007 0:28 UTC (Tue) by stephen_pollei (guest, #23348) [Link]

Also people have repeatable and publicly been requesting that microsoft identify what patents they think are being infringed
35USC287:
TITLE 35--PATENTS
PART III--PATENTS AND PROTECTION OF PATENT RIGHTS
CHAPTER 29--REMEDIES FOR INFRINGEMENT OF PATENT, AND OTHER ACTIONS
Sec. 287. Limitation on damages and other remedies; marking and notice.
says "(3)(A) In making a determination with respect to the remedy in an 
action brought for infringement under section 271(g), the court shall 
consider-- (i) the good faith demonstrated by the defendant with respect to 
    a request for disclosure, ...
(B) For purposes of subparagraph (A), the following are evidence of 
good faith:
        (i) a request for disclosure made by the defendant;
        (ii) a response within a reasonable time by the person receiving 
    the request for disclosure; and
        (iii) the submission of the response by the defendant to the 
    manufacturer, or if the manufacturer is not known, to the supplier, 
    of the product to be purchased by the defendant, together with a 
    request for a written statement that the process claimed in any 
    patent disclosed in the response is not used to produce such 
    product.

The failure to perform any acts described in the preceding sentence is 
evidence of absence of good faith unless there are mitigating 
circumstances. Mitigating circumstances include the case in which, due 
to the nature of the product, the number of sources for the product, or 
like commercial circumstances, a request for disclosure is not necessary 
or practicable to avoid infringement.
    (4)(A) For purposes of this subsection, a ``request for disclosure'' 
means a written request made to a person then engaged in the manufacture 
of a product to identify all process patents owned by or licensed to 
that person, as of the time of the request, that the person then 
reasonably believes could be asserted to be infringed under section 
271(g) if that product were imported into, or sold, offered for sale, or 
used in, the United States by an unauthorized person. A request for 
disclosure is further limited to a request--
        (i) which is made by a person regularly engaged in the United 
    States in the sale of the same type of products as those 
    manufactured by the person to whom the request is directed, or which 
    includes facts showing that the person making the request plans to 
    engage in the sale of such products in the United States;
        (ii) which is made by such person before the person's first 
    importation, use, offer for sale, or sale of units of the product 
    produced by an infringing process and before the person had notice 
    of infringement with respect to the product; and
        (iii) which includes a representation by the person making the 
    request that such person will promptly submit the patents identified 
    pursuant to the request to the manufacturer, or if the manufacturer 
    is not known, to the supplier, of the product to be purchased by the 
    person making the request, and will request from that manufacturer 
    or supplier a written statement that none of the processes claimed 
    in those patents is used in the manufacture of the product.

    (B) In the case of a request for disclosure received by a person to 
whom a patent is licensed, that person shall either identify the patent 
or promptly notify the licensor of the request for disclosure. "

so they need to disclose what they claim is being infringed or the remedies they try to obtain might be limited.

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