|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

According to this Fortune article (by way of CNN), Microsoft is starting to rattle the patent saber in a more serious way. "But [Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith] does break down the total number [of patents] allegedly violated - 235 - into categories. He says that the Linux kernel - the deepest layer of the free operating system, which interacts most directly with the computer hardware - violates 42 Microsoft patents. The Linux graphical user interfaces - essentially, the way design elements like menus and toolbars are set up - run afoul of another 65, he claims. The Open Office suite of programs, which is analogous to Microsoft Office, infringes 45 more. E-mail programs infringe 15, while other assorted FOSS programs allegedly transgress 68."

to post comments

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 1:58 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (25 responses)

As alluded to in the article, if Microsoft were to actually try to obtain roylaties for alleged patent infringements, the war would begin.

Stopping FOSS dead in its tracks would be so damaging, so expensive, and so apocalyptic that Microsoft must know in no uncertain terms that it will be destroyed if it tries to destroy free software. That means IBM, Sun, et. al. need to make it plain that they will get injunctions against Microsoft selling Windows, Office, etc. if it tries to do that to FOSS.

Unless/until the patent mess is sorted out, every player needs to know that detente is the only possible way, and that anyone who violates detente will be destroyed.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 2:34 UTC (Mon) by gjheydon (guest, #4209) [Link] (24 responses)

Plus the same thing that happened to SCO will happen to Mircosoft. All the patents that Microsoft tells us about will be researched and then debunked with lists of prior arts and anything else that makes the patent invalid.

Any that can't be re-examined the FOSS community will develop around and remove the conflicting code.

In the end FOSS will end up being patent free 100%

Meanwhile over at Microsoft, they will get flooded with all the patents that they are infringing from FOSS supporters who own patents and most likely halt all development of all Mircosoft software.

This will not be a good thing for the entire IT industry in the short term but in the long term the patent system will collapse and companies like microsoft will be the ultimate losers.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 6:24 UTC (Mon) by davidw (guest, #947) [Link] (2 responses)

I think that the folks at Microsoft are a lot smarter than those at SCO, and patents are a lot trickier to deal with than "copied code", which was pretty clearly a load of BS.

It wouldn't be a lot of fun, let's put it this way.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 6:55 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

You sure? Microsoft got the clear-cut decision: even if Windows is developed in U.S., even if it violates some patents, even if it's pre-installed - there are no problems as far as systems are sold are outside U.S. Replace Windows with Linux and Microsoft with RedHat - and you'll see that you can safely buy RedHat if you are not U.S. corporation (and presumably even if you are not U.S. subdivision of U.S. corporation).

Basically Microsoft can wreak havoc in U.S. and grind the whole country to the halt - but people outside of U.S. are not affected. If that happens I'm sure it'll not continue for long. Someone will be forced to something about it. And it'll be fun if you are not U.S. citizen - and most people aren't...

That Microsoft even talks about this means they are pretty desperate...

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 12:04 UTC (Mon) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

It seems more interesting in the light of the Novell covenant thing.
Microsoft cuts the deal.
Microsoft emits this giant cloud of patent flatus.
Future trends?:
[market starts buying a lot of Suse]
[microsoft sells Office201x as C# binaries that run fine on Mono]

Best thing to do with this bluff is simply call it; just make sure your poker face is better than mine. ;)

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 11:03 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (3 responses)

In the end FOSS will end up being patent free 100%
That is, I fear, impossible. There is no way to render ten thousand patents invalid, or to work around them. Not only because of the amount of work required, but because of the money the whole process costs. And how do you work around overbroad patents, like: "Method and apparatus to send data over a computer network"? (Not that that one actually exists... only once).

There are only two solutions, I guess: either someone counter-sues, or the patent system collapses once and for all. Let's hope it is the second option.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 18:44 UTC (Mon) by AJWM (guest, #15888) [Link]

> There is no way to render ten thousand patents invalid,

The Supreme Court's recent decision on "obviousness" probably rendered many more than that invalid, or will have when the dust settles. Each one has to be looked at individually, of course, but the "potential for damage" of each one has been greatly reduced.

Patent trolls just suffered a great reduction in their air supply.

Armaggedon

Posted May 15, 2007 8:39 UTC (Tue) by cjl7 (guest, #26116) [Link] (1 responses)

>There is no way to render ten thousand patents invalid,

Then again common sense must prevail... If "business" is all that matters the scope of our problems are bigger then any violation of patents!? (IMHO)

On a side note, China doesn't acknowledge any patents and they are going to be the worlds biggest market soon. So patents only apply to those who care it seems...

//jonas

China

Posted May 17, 2007 16:58 UTC (Thu) by eklitzke (subscriber, #36426) [Link]

China does have a patent system. It's just relatively new (~20 years old), and they're much more "practical" about enforcing patents than we are in America.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 12:08 UTC (Mon) by eduperez (guest, #11232) [Link] (3 responses)

Any that can't be re-examined the FOSS community will develop around and remove the conflicting code.
I think you are confusing patents with copyright. With software patents, you cannot 'develop around and remove the conflicting code', you would need to remove the offending functionality. Think about this: Amazon patented the one-click-buy; now, you cannot create an internet shop that provides one-click-buys, now matter how you code it.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 14:53 UTC (Mon) by fandom (subscriber, #4028) [Link] (2 responses)

So you code around it by having a two-click store.

For a practical example, consider the Ogg and PNG formats
which were designed from the start to be patent free.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 18:03 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

Designing to be patent free is does not mean that they actually are patent-free.

The designers for PNG, Ogg, and other such things, in reality, have absolutely no say in whether or not they are actually patent-free. Sure they can avoid the compression stuff used in Gif, but that doesn't mean that there are not a dozen other patents that they may infringe on.

The closest analog I can think of right now is that Free software exists in a patent minefield. Both our 'friends' in places like IBM, Intel, Novell, and other such people and our 'enemies' like Microsoft and friends.

We are dealing with, literally, hundreds of new patents each month. Microsoft may get 80 or more patents awarded in one go.

We are dealing with a legal disaster of biblical proportions.

Despite the distastefulness of the situation probably the only think that is holding back on the Microsoft full out attack is that Microsoft still feels the desktop market is safe from Linux AND the Linux friends (Novell, IBM, Nokia, etc etc) together probably have more patents then Microsoft does.

It really depends on how valuable Linux and OSS is to these other large patent holders. Are they willing to stick their own necks out to protect Free software?

That's what I figure at least.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 22:43 UTC (Mon) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

"" Microsoft full out attack is that Microsoft still feels the desktop market is safe from Linux AND the Linux friends (Novell, IBM, Nokia, etc etc) together probably have more patents then Microsoft does. ""

Their isnt an attack yet, its only a shake down... but MS intention can only mean *full spectrum dominance*, they'll try to cut some deals advantageous to them with Novell, IBM, Nokia, etc etc... on the account of this treath. Users interests and small developers are out !

"" It really depends on how valuable Linux and OSS is to these other large patent holders. Are they willing to stick their own necks out to protect Free software? ""

Dont count too much on that. If the heat gets too intense they will settle with MS. OSS best defence rely on independent organizations like EFF, and the ability to invalidate patents and counter-attack wherever possible.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 12:43 UTC (Mon) by Janne (guest, #40891) [Link] (12 responses)

"Any that can't be re-examined the FOSS community will develop around and remove the conflicting code."

When you talk of "conflicting code", you are clearly thinking of copyrights, which could be fixed in that manner. But we are not dealing with copyrights, we are dealing with patents. In simplified terms: Copyright handles the actual code. Patents handle what the code does. Copyright could be circumvented by rewriting the code in to something else, and doing it so that it still basically does the same thing. You can't do that with patents, since the patent covers what the code does, and the re-written code would still be doing the same thing it did before the rewrite.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 12:57 UTC (Mon) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link] (11 responses)

>patent covers what the code does
I thought that patents cover an implementation, whereas the underlying algorithms remain free, as in speech, which also seems to resemble a greased pig in its current un-graspability.

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 16:25 UTC (Mon) by phiggins (subscriber, #5605) [Link] (7 responses)

I'm amazed that people have already forgotten the RSA patent problems. RSA is a popular cryptographic algorithm whose patent expired in 2000. Prior to that, it was used in SSL, PGP, IPSec, and various other popular pieces of networked software which were properly licensed by proprietary software vendors, but Free Software users couldn't use them in the USA. There is simply no way to code around RSA support. Many free programs also supported El Gamal and other algorithms, but not having RSA support caused major compatibility problems because most proprietary software didn't support the non-patented algorithms.

MS or any other company could completely kill a project like Samba which needs to interoperate with their software by requiring the protocol to use a patented algorithm (like SSL with RSA). Patents are a serious problem for software in general. I just wonder if Microsoft could be slapped for monopolistic behavior by using their patents in such a way. I just don't know how these areas of law interact.

Network protocols are the one area I've seen patents wreak havoc, but I'm pretty sure that they could present serious problems for desktop software, too. What if all new MS Office file formats used encryption or compression that was patented (assuming decryption and decompression are also patented)?

Armaggedon

Posted May 14, 2007 17:12 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (5 responses)

I just wonder if Microsoft could be slapped for monopolistic behavior by using their patents in such a way. I just don't know how these areas of law interact.
I would think that Microsoft would just offer "reasonable" patent licensing terms. Even if these conditions would kill free software, Microsoft could then argue that they are not being monopolistic because all competitors can license their patents. (Or, to be precise, that they are not using their existing monopoly as an unfair advantage.)

Worst possible scenario. Free software in the US effectively disappears. Checkmate.

Armaggedon in a puff of smoke!

Posted May 14, 2007 23:09 UTC (Mon) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] (4 responses)

"" Worst possible scenario. Free software in the US effectively disappears. Checkmate. ""

hmmm.. no! *Comercial* Free software in the US will be only for the big boys that pay to M$. About all repositorys, say perhaps 90% of all OSS, from all the independent developers will be lodge outside of US... Many developers will go on even if unemployed... M$ thinks they can cut substancial air out of OSS ( how incredible stupid they are!) but the only thing they get is richer out of the extortion, which after all, money and faul play is a banality expected from them anyway.

**For the end user life will go on as usual... its not even check**

Armaggedon scenarios, IANAL

Posted May 14, 2007 23:37 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (3 responses)

It is not so easy, I fear. Most people are not rebels, nor can you expect them to be.

Patents would make liable not only the distributor, but also the end user. In effect, it would be as illegal to run any libre software without paying Microsoft as it is now to run a bootleg copy of Windows. Mix in a little BSA-like (or RIAA-like, if you want) techniques, to instill the fear of God in businesses and end-users as needed, and voilĂ ! Instant monopoly.

It's crazy, I know, but it would be the net result of recent moves by Microsoft. Their executives must be salivating in their fluorescent-lit offices right now. Probably not even them can imagine the situation going so far; a little FUD is all that is needed to keep customers for a few more years. The moment they start the first lawsuit is where IBM, Red Hat et al retaliate.

Posted May 15, 2007 14:47 UTC (Tue) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] (2 responses)

"" Patents would make liable not only the distributor, but also the end user. In effect, it would be as illegal to run any libre software without paying Microsoft as it is now to run a bootleg copy of Windows. ""

And how many "user shops" around the world go with illegal windows ? The large majority i'm affraid, specially among the smallest ones in developing countrys. And that is a fellony everywhere. Well most of these patents are only valid in the US... so... no need to be a rebel here.

M$ is after the big money from the big shops and operators, essentially *only* in US.

Those are only the beginning

Posted May 15, 2007 14:57 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

True, but think about our poor colleagues in the US. Why do they have to pay a Microsoft tax when the brave open world has worked out its own operating system from the bottom up?

Besides, after the US take it for granted that software patents are good, and "violating" them is bad, then you can bet it will take little time to have them reenacted here in Europe. We should help strike evil things down at the roots.

Those are only the beginning

Posted May 17, 2007 14:44 UTC (Thu) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

I've supported "no" softwware patents in Europe for almost a decade.

But another thought is that if OSS is so proficient, an organization to build a vast and good portfolio of patents, prior-art, trivialitys... isnt either a bad idea.

OSS can defeat 'them' at their own game.

Armaggedon

Posted May 15, 2007 19:38 UTC (Tue) by dark (guest, #8483) [Link]

Fortunately, I think that era is now ending. The tug-of-war between ODF and Microsoft's XML format will be the last great decision between patented and unpatented protocols, and in the future a protocol that excludes free software will simply not be able to dominate the marketplace.

I remember when RSA and - particularly - RC5 were inserted into security protocols almost without thought, often as the only must-support option. These days, any such move would be met with an immediate outcry, and a real justification would have to be given for excluding free software implementations. Linux is pervasive enough that every standards body will have at least one user :)

Armaggedon

Posted May 16, 2007 2:58 UTC (Wed) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (2 responses)

Patents cover ideas. You can patent an idea w/o even having an implementation.

Armaggedon

Posted May 17, 2007 9:05 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (1 responses)

Actually, that was specifically not supposed to be the case*. Patents were designed to cover implementations - an idea simply could not be patented, only a machine which implemented that idea. A patenter could only patent his particular implementation of a mousetrap; he could never patent the simple idea of a device for trapping mice, nor only a fragment of a device - and that would remain true regardless of whether or not anyone had thought of a device for catching mice before. Likewise, what would be judged infringing is the reuse of that implementation in any context (not just the rodent-trapping domain), not the use of a different design of device to accomplish the same end.

The rot set in when it was successfully argued that a general purpose machine plus a set of parameters (a program) could be a special purpose machine, and thus patentable; somehow over the years, the combination part has been forgotten, and the parameters themselves became patentable - and by extension, the high-level description of an algorithm which is converted into those parameters became patentable too. And therein lies the flaw* - source code cannot be directly executed, and is therefore not "a set of parameters" for a general purpose machine in any meaningful sense. It only becomes one when converted to a directly-executable binary representation. The "machine" in question is "cited computer + binary" (or, at a stretch, "computer + interpreter + script"); substitute a different computer and you need a completely different set of configuration parameters - ie. you've created a completely different machine. By allowing a system of rules that can be converted in a vast number of ways into a set of parameters, patents on software have become extended to cover precisely the "device for catching mice" idea that remains verboten in patents on physical devices.

What would it mean were patents restricted to a particular combination of hardware and object code? Well* - for one thing, source code is restored to "description of algorithm" status, which is generally a Good Thing! For another, it would mean that a separate patent would have to be obtained for each implementation on every kind of processor architecture, virtual machine, interpreter... which would render it trivially circumventable (in the worst case, just write a new VM and publish the two parts separately) and not impede progress in the art in the way that patents do today. And finally, since the particular implementation of object code is by and large determined by the particular implementation of a compiler, it's possible that simply recompiling source code with a different C compiler would be sufficient to be judged non-infringing - but that would almost certainly have to be legally ruled on.

* IANAL, this isn't legal advice, "To Serve Man" is a cookbook. In particular, I would love to hear from some real lawyers about whether this approach might be worth pursuing, whether it's already been shot down, etc.

Armaggedon

Posted May 17, 2007 9:20 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

(To clarify - you don't have to have implemented what you describe in your patent, nor does it have to work; but it must be possible for someone else to build what you are claiming from the details you give in your patent.)

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 2:51 UTC (Mon) by kwink81 (guest, #33926) [Link] (8 responses)

This article is actually much more fair and informed then most on this subject. It sure doesn't make me any more happy, though.

"Gutierrez refuses to identify specific patents or explain how they're being infringed, lest FOSS advocates start filing challenges to them."

Sigh... This is annoying. Microsoft can't actually try to assault FOSS in court, that would let the FOSS community show that the alleged "intellectual property" is complete BS. That was the mistake SCO made. So they are simply going to stand up at every podium they can find and shout "Hundreds of patents!" it hope that less-educated CEOs get scared.

Maybe the best solution would be to bring to fight to them. The Software Freedom Law Center could sue Microsoft for slander. MS, in self defense, would have to reveal their patents to the world. That would give us the chance to either challenge them or work around them. Of course, the SFLC would need umteen million in cash sitting around in order to substain that kind of legal action, so that may be wishful thinking.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 10:27 UTC (Mon) by macc (guest, #510) [Link] (6 responses)

One solution would be to
make a list of all M$ patents
and then start contesting them
in alphabetical order.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 10:35 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (5 responses)

Maybe, but that sounds like chopping the head off a hydra - whilst you're getting one patent invalidated, MS will have filed several more.

Reform of the US patent system is needed, plain and simple.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 16:48 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (2 responses)

Interesting you should say that... I was picturing the same analogy but in reverse. Worst case, Microsoft declares total war on Linux and starts using patents to gun down development teams at Red Hat, IBM, etc. Each team that gets lopped off in Sunnyvale or Westford will just grow back in Bangalore or Shanghai. Irritating, yes, but not a big deal from the global picture.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 18:51 UTC (Mon) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link] (1 responses)

Unless you're a programmer paid by a US company to work on open source. Getting your job outsourced for legal reason would be much more infuriating than getting your job outsourced for cost reasons.

Take it to your Congress Critter

Posted May 15, 2007 9:17 UTC (Tue) by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256) [Link]

If this results in any significant number of lost jobs in the U.S. then you can imagine that everyone who loses his or her job ... and every relative of each of them ... and any co-workers who were barely missed by the axe ... and *their* relatives will all be leaning on representatives and senators.

This would be U.S. patent armageddon. It would finally push the matter far enough into the light that Joe Sixpack would raise a stink about it.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 16:55 UTC (Mon) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

That is another hydra problem.. the only way to slay both of them is to use Iolaus's solution. Cut the head off and burn the head. By showing how broken the patent system is you can convince the honest politician to fix the system. By showing how corrupt Microsoft can be in bribing politicians.. you can show how to fix that system.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 15, 2007 8:45 UTC (Tue) by frankie (subscriber, #13593) [Link]

Ack, US software patenting is evil, plain and simple.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 18:39 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link]

>This article is actually much more fair and informed then most on this subject.

Well, that's not saying much... especially since this article takes great pains to paint RMS and the FSF as being the stick-in-the-mud troglodytes that not only MS, but everyone in the "open-source" world are ever-so-patiently tolerating, kind of like the stuffy old uncle you wish you could get away from. I'm sure Microsoft would love it if everyone saw the FSF that way, but fortunately their daydreams haven't come true yet.

It's McCarthyism all over again

Posted May 14, 2007 4:23 UTC (Mon) by pr1268 (guest, #24648) [Link] (3 responses)

"...[Microsoft] asserts that one reason free software is of such high quality is that it violates more than 200 of Microsoft's patents."

Somebody surely has a high opinion of themselves. What a load of mule hock! Some day (hopefully sooner) people (including Microsoft) will realize that FLOSS owes its high quality to the very open nature in which it is developed, not because it copies Microsoft.

Seriously, though, Microsoft running around noisily claiming that the Linux kernel and related user space programs violate Microsoft patents without specifying exactly which ones reminds me of similar behavior by Joseph McCarthy in the U.S. Senate in 1950, running around claiming that the American State Department was infiltrated with Communists. Just my perception.

It's McCarthyism all over again

Posted May 14, 2007 4:37 UTC (Mon) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link] (2 responses)

Sadly, the way USPTO granted overly-broad patents without checking for prior art, Microsoft's claim is probably true in a very twisted way: nobody can write anything meaningful without violating some patent that one of the big tech companies (IBM, Sun, Microsoft, etc.) holds. The culprit is the patent system, not the author of the infringing software.

Regardless of whether software patents is a good idea or not (I personally think it's not), the USPTO and Congress have a serious conflict-of-interest problem here. Granting more patents earn them more money, and examining patent applications carefully cost them money. Plus, they don't lose anything for patents that are overturned. The Justice department should charge USPTO for the time wasted by patent challenges, if the patent ends up overturned because of USPTO's fault. That way they'd have an incentive to be more careful.

It's McCarthyism all over again

Posted May 15, 2007 10:36 UTC (Tue) by egoforth (subscriber, #2351) [Link] (1 responses)

This is one of the better patent reform suggestions that I've heard. Not that I'm holding out hope for any meaningful change, but it seems fairly straightforward and workable so long as there is some easily identifiable criteria to place blame. The charges could be done on a sliding scale based on the number of claims in a patent that are overturned, so that the costs increase with the amount of neglect.

costs

Posted May 19, 2007 22:33 UTC (Sat) by pdundas (guest, #15203) [Link]

A way to do that might be to make the US Patent Office liable for the legal costs of the successful challenger.

A company which made and defended the invalid patent (if they were shown to be knowingly - rather than, say, negligently - ignoring prior art) could also be liable for consequential loss by the challenger - delay to product launch, etc.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 5:47 UTC (Mon) by wilreichert (guest, #17680) [Link] (20 responses)

FUD from a rat backed into a corner. Guess they didn't learn anything from SCO.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 6:06 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (19 responses)

But you gotta admit, it's nice to see Microsoft preparing to do its own dirty work this time.

Hope PJ is rested. This could get far more interesting than SCO ever was.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 9:30 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (18 responses)

Don't put all your hopes in PJ - she's now showing her lack of business and legal acumen by ranting against anyone who has any dealings with Microsoft, together with siding with Google in the Verizon lawsuit (already we have her FUDing by implying that Verizon is claiming *all* of YouTube's contents infringes Verizon's IP, and after setting up that strawman publishes a "YouTube of the Day" feature to "prove" that not everything on GooTube has anything to do with Verizon - Verizon might have questionable business practices, but here they have a case and it deserves to be reported fairly).

PJ's star is falling and fading, with only the faithful (admittedly a large group due to the global reach of the website) following her.

For those of us who don't want to deal with an FSF mouthpiece, we're going to have to find someone else, perhaps using Groklaw as a tool, but not a driver.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 10:39 UTC (Mon) by briangmaddox (guest, #39279) [Link] (2 responses)

You mean the Viacom lawsuit? If so, I'd argue that Viacom does NOT have a case. Viacom was one of the companies that pushed hard to get the DMCA passed. When Google gets DMCA takedowns, they comply. What Viacom wants is for Google to spend their time and money to do Viacom's work for them. I'm sorry, but Viacom got the law they wanted (at the expense of people's legal rights like make backups of certain media). All Google legally has to do is remove videos when they get a takedown notice. Although if you want to do away with things like safe harbor then Verizon would be involved and fight on Google's side :)

THAT's what is not being reported fairly. What normally gets reported is that Google is helping piracy by hosting these videos. No one seems to remember that Viacom is complaining about having to follow the law they helped pass.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 11:59 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (1 responses)

My bad, Viacom it is. And, yes, some of Viacom's behaviour stinks, but I don't think GooTube is whiter-than-white here, either. This case really is two pigs fighting in the mud and, IMHO, could go either way - both sides make good points.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 20:31 UTC (Mon) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

I'm sorry, but I think you are wrong:

> some of Viacom's behaviour stinks, but I don't think GooTube is
> whiter-than-white here, either. This case really is two pigs fighting
> in the mud

no, GooTube is whiter-than-white alright. why? because they are only the
enablers of a _whole_ _awful_ _lot_ of video-communications. Suing them
because some user put up one of Viacom's films is like suing the phone
company if I connect my answering machine to my CD player and put it to
play Metallica. In the latter case, Metallica should/could sue _me_ for
the unauthorized public performance of their work; in the former, Viacom
should/could sue _the_ _user_ for the unauthorized public performance (or
copy) of their work. But GooTube has *absolutely* *nothing* to do with
it. The work of policing all of GooTube to see if users are not
infringing my copyrights is _my_ work, not GooTube's. Period. Once I see
someone doing something murky, I alert GooTube and they put the offending
video down at once. So, yes, they are whiter than white.

PJ has a point

Posted May 14, 2007 13:23 UTC (Mon) by vblum (guest, #1151) [Link] (2 responses)

Substantial non-infringing use has to be proven somewhere, whether questioned in the suit or not. Napster et al could not credibly demonstrate this, I believe.

YouTube is also plain competition for the established entertainment networks. If they can taint YouTube's reputation to the point of it going away, they will do it. Now or later.

(Says one who has decidedly not participated in any such filesharing to this day, no time for that)

PJ has a strawman

Posted May 14, 2007 13:58 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (1 responses)

Proving substantial non-infringing use is a slam-dunk here. It's the substantial infringing use that Google has to worry about.

PJ has a strawman

Posted May 14, 2007 14:08 UTC (Mon) by vblum (guest, #1151) [Link]

I respectfully submit that I am not a strawman. If you wish to stir trouble, please find another forum.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 13:28 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Your rants against PJ would be more impressive if you didn't follow up to every message on LWN that mentions PJ with another rant.

It looks like either jealousy or a grudge to me.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 14:14 UTC (Mon) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm not sure about the Verizon lawsuit details, but as for the rest of your words--they don't seem to make any sense. Why are you looking for a "driver"?

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 17:23 UTC (Mon) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link] (1 responses)

I think he's referring to the way that PJ and Groklaw essentially "drove" the FLOSS community opposition to SCO v IBM, and saying that the community needs a different person / site to collate and coordinate the response to the MS allegations.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 19:25 UTC (Mon) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link]

Thanks for the translation. Since a driver against the Microsoft patent threats would be defending free software, I am mystified why anyone would _not_ want the driver to be sympathetic to the organization that promotes free software. Moreover, PJ already has had a warmup with the SCO case and is good at it.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 17, 2007 9:15 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (7 responses)

Please outline your qualifications with regard to American law, with particular reference to why you feel able to state so categorically that PJ - who has many years as a paralegal under her belt, let's not forget - is incorrect in her interpretation of the Google-Verizon case.

(Your tendency to sling personal insults remains contemptible, of course. I'm especially amused by your apparent notion of the FSF as a dangerous secret conspiracy, with puppets and spies lurking in every corner and goals to which no free person in their right mind could possibly subscribe. Hmm... that sounds familiar, actually...)

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 17, 2007 14:30 UTC (Thu) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (6 responses)

One of the faithful speaks... and quickly demonizes the critic, too, swiftly distorting the opposing view.

Non-infringing videos on GooTube are irrelevant to Viacom's case. How can they be? Viacom have no claim to them, and neither do they make a claim.

PJ's highlighting the fact that there are non-infringing videos on GooTube, implying that weakens Viacom's case, is a strawman.

And, BTW, just because someone has legal training doesn't automatically mean that their stated position is correct. There are lawyers on both sides of any case.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 18, 2007 4:53 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (5 responses)

> One of the faithful speaks... and quickly demonizes the critic, too

Hypocrite.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 18, 2007 5:08 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (4 responses)

No, actually, I want to expand on that.

You describe me as "one of the faithful". Which is funny, because I don't know the first thing about this case, and I very seldom actually read Groklaw. About the only thing I do know for sure is that you despise the FSF and everyone who has anything to do with them with an almost evangelical fervour; and now I learn that you'll slander anyone who disagrees with you at the drop of a hat.

Fine. Drop me a line at lwn.id@tierveil.co.uk and give me something I can check out, and I'll do the same. Hey, I'm just some clueless nobody; I have nothing to hide. But dammit, you owe me an apology; and I think it's high time you put your cards on the table and told us who NigelK *really* is.

> just because someone has legal training doesn't automatically mean that their stated position is correct.

But it does make their opinion rather more likely to be correct than that of some random layperson, doesn't it? Which is why I asked for your qualifications to speak authoritatively about the US legal system. We already know PJ's. Without such disclosure, the only available conclusion is that the full extent of your qualification to speak on this case is your certainty that anyone criticised on Groklaw must be in the right.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 18, 2007 9:28 UTC (Fri) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (3 responses)

As much as I'd like to exchange emails with an angry loon with a bruised ego, poor reading comprehension skills, and the urge to protect FSF-related personalities at any cost, I think I'll pass. I have more important things to do with my life, like clipping my toenails.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 18, 2007 13:11 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] (2 responses)

...I've been eaten by a troll, haven't I? Sorry, LWN.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 18, 2007 13:29 UTC (Fri) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (1 responses)

Sigh... no... You just have to accept that the people you respect are wrong sometimes.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 18, 2007 23:59 UTC (Fri) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link]

But the problem I have with you is that you've reduced that to a binary choice. You think your former heroes are wrong, so you attack them without pause or mercy, or necessarily even consideration, making exactly the same accusations in thread after thread, regardless of circumstance. When someone disagrees with your assessment of their faults, you charge them with being an unthinking supporter. That's how you're coming across.

My problem isn't with your opinions; it's with your reduction of the world to a couple of either/or choices, your apparent refusal to consider that there might be shades of grey or perspectives that haven't occurred to you, your tendency to treat your fallen idols in a manner I can only term despicable, and your dismissal of those who criticise you as "one of the faithful", or the like, apparently unaware that all you are dismissing is your own reflection.

So I'll try this once more, and after this I'm done. Listen, and please try to understand. *These people are not my heroes*. (I don't *have* heroes, as such - never have.) Where I think they're wrong, I'll say so; where I think they are right, it's because they are voicing my principles, not because I've adopted theirs; where I don't know enough to comment, I'll (try and) keep my mouth shut. My respect for the goals and actions of the FSF, and for its founder, is premised only on the fact that they seem to value freedom as much as I do, and if I thought that they were faltering in that I'd say so; as I've mentioned, I don't even pay much attention to Groklaw or PJ. If I wanted to put in the effort, I might be able to compile a list of mistakes I think they've made, or of points of disagreement - but *they're just not that important to me*.

It's not about them, or me - it's about *you*. These people are *your* heroes, and your behaviour toward them is that of the celebrity-stalker - irrational, creepy, manipulative, dishonest, self-abasing; ultimately the actions of someone who has no existence of their own. If you have a shred of empathy inside you, or an ounce of insight into your own soul, please consider what I've said, mourn the loss of your role models, and let them pass from your life. Because right now, your obsessions are consuming you; if you don't escape them, there will soon be nothing left... but I fear you have already passed that point. Delight me - prove me wrong.

Time for a cease-and-desist letter?

Posted May 14, 2007 6:19 UTC (Mon) by tavis (guest, #14187) [Link] (3 responses)

Now that Microsoft has a cross-licensing deal with Novell that has customers AND has made these comments, doesn't that show that their actions have caused harm to their competitors (e.g., RedHat, Canonical, etc.)? In which case, the allegations either should be substantiated or they amount to false advertising/slander of title/etc. So can't someone threaten MS that they need to substantiate the allegations and explain which 235 patents are being violated by what programs?

Time for a cease-and-desist letter?

Posted May 14, 2007 7:01 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

Nobody has this much money. The situation with patents sucks big way: you need a lot of money to fight even bogus patent - while patent owner can grind your business to a half meanwhile.

Can't afford to fight?

Posted May 14, 2007 7:57 UTC (Mon) by PO8 (guest, #41661) [Link]

…and this is where things get weird with free/open source software. US and multinational businesses (primarily Linux distributors, but also some of the for-profit and non-profit foundations involved in application development) can't just ignore the US patents and keep cranking out software without a court fight. However, much free software is still developed by an international community of dedicated individuals with no financial stake in their creations. Short of shutting down the Internet, I don't see how you keep them from continuing to do that.

If you're looking for an analogy, witness the US fight to prevent the development and dissemination of software supporting strong encryption. Screwed a few US businesses up some, and was ultimately entirely futile. There are obvious differences between the crypto wars and the current situation, but the current situation is even less like a fight between two traditional companies (e.g. the IBM v SCO battle).

I don't think this is just a clearcut fight like biz-vs-biz would be. If the war is on, it will be a strange, strange war.

Time for a cease-and-desist letter?

Posted May 15, 2007 3:00 UTC (Tue) by tavis (guest, #14187) [Link]

I'm not suggesting fighting all 235 patents. The point of a cease-and-desist letter would be to force M$ to either tell us what the patents are or to shut up. The FSF and other legal groups (e.g., SFLC) don't necessarily have a business to grind to a halt; or, they could do it on behalf of a developer. They could claim harm by saying that their client's protected speech (of sharing his/her code with DB/Credit Suisse/etc.) has been threatened. Hmm, maybe someone should ask them.....

Begun this patent was has

Posted May 14, 2007 8:19 UTC (Mon) by jmorris42 (guest, #2203) [Link]

I'd say that it is officially 'on' as of now. Microsoft has to know that mere saber rattling won't work. All it will do is provoke a response, a cry for them to 'bring it' as is already happening. They had to know what sort of reaction to expect, there ARE some smart people working there.

No, SCO was a delaying tactic to buy time for them to come up with a strategy, something other than what is about to happen I suspect. But this is all they have, all out patent war. They know the risks, it could escalate into a real horror, it could even force Congress and the courts to reform the patent system.

They know all about network effects and just how fast a seemingly invincible marketshare can change. After all they only have to look upon the corpses they have left behind them. Lotus, Wordperfect, Netscape. There were times when suggesting any of them would be overthrown would have received only laughter. They are afraid that if they simply do nothing that the point of no return will pass them. Especially when they are paranoid enough when they are crushing their enemies. The thought of a foe they can't beat with their usual tactics has em spooked.

So since they really don't have another choice, they seduced Novell to the dark side to sow discord in our camp and offer a way for short sighted mega corps to opt out of the fight, weakening our ability to recruit allies and now they will attack. Without the Novell deal every fortune 500 corporation would be looking at a major open ended liability problem with no obvious way to throw money at it to get rid of it, thus they might be scared enough to call their pet Congressman.

Interesting times ahead!

Sounds like they jumped the gun!

Posted May 14, 2007 9:20 UTC (Mon) by dark (guest, #8483) [Link] (1 responses)

I assumed that all this time, they were waiting for software patents to be ratified in the EU before launching their attack. If this fight starts in earnest, it will be a powerful argument for the people opposing software patents in the EU.

This might mean that they now expect the process in the EU to be irreversible, though. We'd best be on our guard. Do they have something planned?

Sounds like they jumped the gun!

Posted May 14, 2007 15:01 UTC (Mon) by fandom (subscriber, #4028) [Link]

I assume the same thing, and we may very well be right, after all they
haven't launched their attack yet, this is nothing but FUD.

And a stupid FUD at that, the supreme court just said that many software
patents are invalid and, even if they are valid, they don't apply outside
the USA.

Isn't it nice that Microsoft itself was responsible for that last
veredict?

More FUD, and double-edged at that

Posted May 14, 2007 9:20 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (11 responses)

This is just Microsoft FUD, but also double-edged FUD that can seriously damage Microsoft later:

235 patents in total:

42 in the kernel
65 in the GUI
45 in OOo
15 in email clients
68 in others

The first question to be asked in any court is: given that the Linux-related source code is written separately mostly by people with no relation to Microsoft, how can these patents be valid non-obvious ones if independent coders can invent them themselves? And the follow-up question: just what proportion of your patent portfolio is as weak as these patents?

But we all know that these patents will never see the inside of a court room - MS is just interested in FUD, not actual enforcement.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 10:03 UTC (Mon) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (4 responses)

Just because a second person had the same idea, that doesn't mean the idea was too obvious to be patentable.

With patents, after your application is approved, anyone who implements that idea (or who has implemented it since you application was first filed!) is an infringer of your patent.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 10:23 UTC (Mon) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] (3 responses)

Just because a second person had the same idea, that doesn't mean the idea was too obvious to be patentable.

Correct, but it certainly raises questions that MS might not want to answer.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 12:42 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (2 responses)

Which questions? Ciaran is right, nobody will question the patent system because of that. Remember Elisha Gray? The poor guy got to the patent office with his telephone invention just hours after Bell had patented the same thing. That does not make the patent any more obvious or the process any more flawed.

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 16:34 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

It does make sense that two guys can independently and simultaneously invent something. But when some "invention" is done in passing and second "independent inventor" does not even realize it's "invention"... this cast the doubt on the quality of said patent. Big time. It does not mean that the patent if bogus, but it certainly looks strange...

After all patent must be novel and non-obvious. If someone invented the thing and not even realized that it's worth something... how can it be non-obvious ? Are all Linux developers geniuses ?

That's not how patents work

Posted May 14, 2007 16:45 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Good point. However, I'm not sure the argument would fly too far before it is shot down... After all, Linux developers (Torvalds, famously) are known for being geniuses, releasing code freely, ideologically being against software patents, supporting copyleft, and being raving communists... erm, this last part is bogus ;)

In short, GNU/Linux developers (kernel+userspace) will be pictured as giving their work away and being against the holy Intellectual Property trinity (copyright, patents and trade marks), even if it is not exactly true. So nobody will be surprised that they do not patent their inventions.

More FUD, and double-edged at that

Posted May 14, 2007 17:06 UTC (Mon) by lmb (subscriber, #39048) [Link] (5 responses)

The question it does raise though is that, if they know which patents are affected, why they are not contacting the supposedly infringing parties after they as patent holders have become aware of it. Does that not make a potential law suit rather more difficult if they have to explain why they "tolerated" such for months and years?

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:12 UTC (Mon) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link] (4 responses)

Patents don't work like that. While trademarks must be protected or else lost, patent
violations may be freely ignored without diminishing your power to enforce when you want
to.

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:37 UTC (Mon) by lmb (subscriber, #39048) [Link] (1 responses)

Thanks for clarifying that. It confirms my opinion about the usefulness of patents as they are; they seem to be designed by someone in love with smoke, mirrors and FUD. Sigh.

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:57 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Not really. Patents are created to better protect inventor. Inventor can be single person and if s/he has no resources to monitor all firms in existence - it's Ok. If someone is using your patented invention without patent - you can collect money for old violations easily. But if you do know about violation and do nothing - you effectively Ok this usage (Rambus DDR patents). You can change patent policy at any time - but again even this way has limitations (see Phillis CD patents for example). In short: once you've declared that you know that someone is violations your patent - better to act quick.

tolerance

Posted May 14, 2007 20:49 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

There are differences and there are similarities. You can sit as long as you wish on your patents without losing them - but only if you can cite good reason for doing so (ignorance is good reason). Once you have a list - clock is ticking. After some time old violations can be declared too old, but new ones will be upheld. See Unisys and GIF fiasco: old violations were forgiven easily (Unisys had no real choice due to Doctrine of Latches), but new versions of the same programs required patent license.

If Microsoft's patents are real and valid then each day of delay is costing them money.

request for disclosure

Posted May 15, 2007 0:28 UTC (Tue) by stephen_pollei (guest, #23348) [Link]

Also people have repeatable and publicly been requesting that microsoft identify what patents they think are being infringed
35USC287:
TITLE 35--PATENTS
PART III--PATENTS AND PROTECTION OF PATENT RIGHTS
CHAPTER 29--REMEDIES FOR INFRINGEMENT OF PATENT, AND OTHER ACTIONS
Sec. 287. Limitation on damages and other remedies; marking and notice.
says "(3)(A) In making a determination with respect to the remedy in an 
action brought for infringement under section 271(g), the court shall 
consider-- (i) the good faith demonstrated by the defendant with respect to 
    a request for disclosure, ...
(B) For purposes of subparagraph (A), the following are evidence of 
good faith:
        (i) a request for disclosure made by the defendant;
        (ii) a response within a reasonable time by the person receiving 
    the request for disclosure; and
        (iii) the submission of the response by the defendant to the 
    manufacturer, or if the manufacturer is not known, to the supplier, 
    of the product to be purchased by the defendant, together with a 
    request for a written statement that the process claimed in any 
    patent disclosed in the response is not used to produce such 
    product.

The failure to perform any acts described in the preceding sentence is 
evidence of absence of good faith unless there are mitigating 
circumstances. Mitigating circumstances include the case in which, due 
to the nature of the product, the number of sources for the product, or 
like commercial circumstances, a request for disclosure is not necessary 
or practicable to avoid infringement.
    (4)(A) For purposes of this subsection, a ``request for disclosure'' 
means a written request made to a person then engaged in the manufacture 
of a product to identify all process patents owned by or licensed to 
that person, as of the time of the request, that the person then 
reasonably believes could be asserted to be infringed under section 
271(g) if that product were imported into, or sold, offered for sale, or 
used in, the United States by an unauthorized person. A request for 
disclosure is further limited to a request--
        (i) which is made by a person regularly engaged in the United 
    States in the sale of the same type of products as those 
    manufactured by the person to whom the request is directed, or which 
    includes facts showing that the person making the request plans to 
    engage in the sale of such products in the United States;
        (ii) which is made by such person before the person's first 
    importation, use, offer for sale, or sale of units of the product 
    produced by an infringing process and before the person had notice 
    of infringement with respect to the product; and
        (iii) which includes a representation by the person making the 
    request that such person will promptly submit the patents identified 
    pursuant to the request to the manufacturer, or if the manufacturer 
    is not known, to the supplier, of the product to be purchased by the 
    person making the request, and will request from that manufacturer 
    or supplier a written statement that none of the processes claimed 
    in those patents is used in the manufacture of the product.

    (B) In the case of a request for disclosure received by a person to 
whom a patent is licensed, that person shall either identify the patent 
or promptly notify the licensor of the request for disclosure. "

so they need to disclose what they claim is being infringed or the remedies they try to obtain might be limited.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 14, 2007 10:50 UTC (Mon) by gouyou (guest, #30290) [Link]

One thing that is still and will be for a long time in the picture is the anti-trust legislation. Microsoft Corp has to take care of not going in a frontal way against competitor. Europe is still waving structural remedies against the company, and going after Linux could bring them back on the radar of a couple of prosecutors. They have to be extra careful: Microsoft worst enemy might be Microsoft itself ...

SCO fails, Microsoft now handles the dirty work

Posted May 14, 2007 17:43 UTC (Mon) by stock (guest, #5849) [Link] (1 responses)

Its seems the role of "The SCO Group" as Microsoft's intermediary to take on Open Source, linux and its backers, like IBM, has come to an end. Darl McBride has lost and the grapes are not only sour, they are almost vanished, as today's SCO has no remsemblance with the SCO of the 1980's and 90's [1]. Microsoft knows it, and has to do something to get the Patent FUD/fear game going again. It's astonishing to see that Microsoft now will do the dirty work themselves.

[1] SCO's financial results are in

Seems 'the SCO Group' is on its way down. "Well done Darl McBride!" Here's an old email i sent to someone in August 2003, when asked what i knew of this new company called 'The SCO group' :

   
Hi,       
      
Last year, in September 2002 I met Darl McBride in real life by sheer      
coincidence. Actually i spoke with him for an half a hour. It was a      
joined Caldera/HP symposium called GeoFORUM on 25 September 2002 at the      
Holiday Inn Hotel, Haagse Schouwweg 10, Leiden. It was the announcement      
in Holland of Caldera's new company name : "The SCO Group Inc."       
      
Although Darl McBride was not listed on the GeoFORUM announcement letter,      
he did show up to give an unannounced speech as the new CEO or their      
renamed company (formerly Caldera Inc.) The SCO Group Inc. Now that I      
think of it, why would McBride not announce himself before the conference      
started that he would give a speech?       
      
Anyway, I talked to McBride about the role of Linux, and how the Linux      
thing should be incorporated into UNIX business. I told him, that Linux      
and other OSS stuff are ready for download, like wood in the forest. It      
only takes experienced carpenters to make it to use. The problem is      
however McBride is a experienced business man only. and he fired his own      
squad of experienced SCO UNIX carpenters.       
      
McBride said the following. He was there to tell that Caldera was      
surprised to see that SCO UNIXWARE and SCO OpenServer license card and      
media sales were the largest income at Caldera's. That's why the decided      
to a company name change into "The SCO Group Inc."       
      
McBride asked the audience why people kept purchasing SCO OpenServer. The      
answer was, "Because it just works, all your software runs, and it      
doesn't come with unneeded bloated features". Then he asked why Linux      
like water was free to drink. I told him that when you drink water from a      
unknown source you might get ill. If you buy your water from a reliable      
source your fine. So labeling and branding the Linux water was a way to      
earn a decent income from Linux.       
      
So it all comes down to, as a business being liable for the products you      
sell. And if you screw up your company's product, you will have to      
suffer. McBride turned almost white :) So this dude is phony IMHO.       
      
cheers,       
      
Robert      
--      
Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE      
Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist      
crashrecovery.org stock@stokkie.net      
Well McBride did listen allright. SCO OpenServer 6 has become a bloated and rare used version of UNIX on x86. Caldera Linux has become extinct, and its twin brother Novell's SuSE Linux, adopted from SuSE G.m.b.H from Bavaria, has never before had so much funded criticism from within its user/customer community, where the reliability of its Desktop is questioned.

Like with Windows, the reliability of the Novell SuSE Linux desktop is today harmed by 3rd party software in binary form, like the latest Flash gear.

Fascinating!

Posted May 15, 2007 4:19 UTC (Tue) by pr1268 (guest, #24648) [Link]

Fascinating e-mail and post! Thank you for sharing.

Plus, I really like your analogy of Linux as a "branded" drinking water. Too bad tSCOg and McBride didn't pursue that business strategy (or not!).

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 15, 2007 5:58 UTC (Tue) by lewis (guest, #45263) [Link] (3 responses)

If M$ has been filing patent applications at the rate of over 3,000
per year since 2004 as asserted they must have well over 10,000 by now
and by Ballmers best FUD only 235 are infringed by FOSS?
This is only 2 percent!
Since a RedHat distro plus Open Office tools are more than sufficient to
run a perfectly good business. This implies that 98 percent of M$ patents
cover bells and whistles in their own OS and tools that are essentially
completely irrelevant.

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 15, 2007 15:20 UTC (Tue) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link] (2 responses)

Microsoft's business is broad enough that I would expect their patent portfolio to cover many, many things that have nothing to do with operating systems...

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 16, 2007 10:14 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

You mean 98% of Microsoft's patents cover MS Mouse and MS keyboard ? Hard to believe: Linux distribution (like Debian) include software of all types. Yes, some kinds are not as advanced/professional as MS offerings (yet) but it's quite hard to find anything from MS without at least partial analog in Debian...

Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)

Posted May 16, 2007 13:47 UTC (Wed) by sepreece (guest, #19270) [Link]

MicroPatent shows 15864 patents applied for by or assigned to Microsoft.

I looked at a small sample (two groups of 50 patents). Based on the titles of the patents, no more than 10% seemed likely to involve anything that might be in the core components of a Linux distirbution (obviously, FLOSS is much broader than that and some of the distributions include large numbers of diverse applications).

Going deeper into the patents probably would find some additional ones that might be of concern, but would also eliminate many of tem as applying to specific inventions that aren't used in Linux.

My guess would be they chose a conservative number - patents they thought were pretty obviously infringed.

STOP IT PLEASE ~ THERE IS *NO* DANGER.

Posted May 28, 2007 3:06 UTC (Mon) by KenWPeek (guest, #45462) [Link]

|
PLEASE STOP ALL OF THIS NONSENSE!

Patent Law, is *NOT* the same as Copyright Law.

The *ONLY* thing the US government grants to the patent holder is: "The exclusive right to market the invention...". In this sentence, "market" is a verb. Let's look up the meaning of "to market" in Black's Law dictionary (use the older dictionary that was available at the time the law was written.) The verb "to market" means: "to sell, or offer for sale, or license the sale of". Also, when a patent is issued, the US Government is automatically granted a perpetual non-exclusive license to the technology for FREE.

If no money changes hands for a product, then the product was *NOT* "sold".

*ALL* distributors of free software that I know of GIVE AWAY FOR FREE the software-- though some of them charge a fee for the media and/or service of burning the FREE software onto a disk.

*NO* "end user" of a patented technology can be sued for "patent infringement", because they are *NOT* selling a product incorporating the patented technology.

Microsoft's assertions of "patent infringement" DO NOT APPLY TO END USERS, PERIOD. AND THAT MEANS CORPORATIONS TOO (which are just "paper persons".)

Microsoft's assertions of patent infringement DO NOT APPLY TO DISTRIBUTORS OF FREE PRODUCTS OF ANY KIND.

The only exception to this is for the non-GPL-type licenses (BSD, MIT, etc.), where the distributor of the software chooses to charge money for the software. Then, and only then may Microsoft's assertions of "patent infringement" apply, and then only if the patents are found to be valid, and only if the software sold uses the patented technology.

As a veteran of patent infringement lawsuits, allow me to explain how this all works.

In order to keep it's patent rights, a patent holder (Microsoft in this case) *MUST* begin proceedings against the alleged "patent infringer". This is called "due diligence", and there is a time limit set forth in case law for this. The clock begins as soon as the patent holder realizes that a patented technology is (possibly) being infringed. If you inform the alleged infringer within six months, you are on solid ground, and longer than that is "questionable" (you better have a good reason!) The proceedings begin by sending a "Cease and Desist" letter to the alleged patent infringer. The letter *MUST* state the specific patent number, and *MUST* state specifically how the person or company is infringing (or is "about to" infringe by offering a product for sale). For software products, this would at least show the product that the alleged infringer is offering for sale, and *HOW* that product allegedly infringes on the patent holder's technology. If this information is not provided, case law holds that the alleged infringer has *NOT* been "noticed" (given sufficient notice) of the infringement, and the process has not yet begun. The patent holder may *NOT* wait until sufficient damages have accrued before beginning to exercise "due diligence", because the court is likely to declare that the alleged patent infringer has been given permission (by "default") due to insufficient notice in a timely manner, and this *CAN* cause the patent to end up in the public domain.

So, let's assume that sufficient notice begins. The two parties may engage in a dialog to further define the alleged infringement, and if the alleged infringer then agrees that they are infringing, they can either decide to stop infringing immediately, or to work out a licensing deal with the patent holder. (The latter is the usual course taken.)

If the alleged infringer does *NOT* agree that infringement is taking place (for various reasons, like: 1) they are not selling anything or offering anything for sale, or 2) they think the patent is not valid due to one or more reasons, or 3) or they believe that their product uses a different technology than what the patent holder is claiming that they are using, etc.) The two parties will now begin court proceedings. This usually begins by the patent holder filing a lawsuit against the alleged infringer, who then in turn usually motions the court for a "show cause" hearing (which is almost always granted.) In this "show cause" hearing, the patent holder *MUST* show proof of the exact product that the alleged infringer *SOLD* (or offers for sale if no sale has yet occurred), and the exact manner and method that the alleged infringement is occurring. If insufficient evidence is provided that shows that clearly shows that infringement is taking place, the judge will dismiss the case, and that is the end of it. If the judge believes that there is sufficient evidence that infringement occurred, then a trial date will be set, and at this time the patent holder usually motions the court for injunctive relief (to stop the alleged infringer from selling the products in question until the matter is resolved in court.) In these kinds of cases, the motion for injunctive relief is usually denied, but the judge will order the alleged infringer to keep accurate record of all sales (in case they lose the case, the infringer will have to surrender all proceeds of any sales.)

So, as you can see from the above, Microsoft would never make it past the "show cause" hearing stage, because no products are being sold, and no there is no intention to sell any products. (Indeed, the GPL forbids the sale of the GPL'd software for any amount of money.)

END-OF-LAWSUIT. GAME OVER.

So (for example) if you download a FREE ISO image of "Ubuntu Linux" from a server in South Africa, burn the ISO image onto a CD, and install the software, Microsoft has no "standing" in court, because: 1) You are an end-user of the product, and you are not selling the product or offering it for sale, and 2) South Africa (wisely) does not recognize "software patents", and so no lawsuit can be filed in that country. In this case, Microsoft is simply left out in the cold, and can do *NOTHING* (without being counter-sued for a "frivolous lawsuit", and THEY would LOSE.)

So, unless you *KNOW* what you are talking about, please quit with all of the "worry talk". It is just scaring everyone, and is only *helping* Microsoft with their "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" [FUD] campaign.
|


Copyright © 2007, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds