Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
But [Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith] does break down the total number [of patents] allegedly violated - 235 - into categories. He says that the Linux kernel - the deepest layer of the free operating system, which interacts most directly with the computer hardware - violates 42 Microsoft patents. The Linux graphical user interfaces - essentially, the way design elements like menus and toolbars are set up - run afoul of another 65, he claims. The Open Office suite of programs, which is analogous to Microsoft Office, infringes 45 more. E-mail programs infringe 15, while other assorted FOSS programs allegedly transgress 68."
Posted May 14, 2007 1:58 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (25 responses)
As alluded to in the article, if Microsoft were to actually try to obtain roylaties for alleged patent infringements, the war would begin. Stopping FOSS dead in its tracks would be so damaging, so expensive, and so apocalyptic that Microsoft must know in no uncertain terms that it will be destroyed if it tries to destroy free software. That means IBM, Sun, et. al. need to make it plain that they will get injunctions against Microsoft selling Windows, Office, etc. if it tries to do that to FOSS. Unless/until the patent mess is sorted out, every player needs to know that detente is the only possible way, and that anyone who violates detente will be destroyed.
Posted May 14, 2007 2:34 UTC (Mon)
by gjheydon (guest, #4209)
[Link] (24 responses)
Any that can't be re-examined the FOSS community will develop around and remove the conflicting code.
In the end FOSS will end up being patent free 100%
Meanwhile over at Microsoft, they will get flooded with all the patents that they are infringing from FOSS supporters who own patents and most likely halt all development of all Mircosoft software.
This will not be a good thing for the entire IT industry in the short term but in the long term the patent system will collapse and companies like microsoft will be the ultimate losers.
Posted May 14, 2007 6:24 UTC (Mon)
by davidw (guest, #947)
[Link] (2 responses)
It wouldn't be a lot of fun, let's put it this way.
Posted May 14, 2007 6:55 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
You sure? Microsoft got the clear-cut decision: even if Windows is developed in U.S., even if it violates some patents, even if it's pre-installed - there are no problems as far as systems are sold are outside U.S. Replace Windows with Linux and Microsoft with RedHat - and you'll see that you can safely buy RedHat if you are not U.S. corporation (and presumably even if you are not U.S. subdivision of U.S. corporation). Basically Microsoft can wreak havoc in U.S. and grind the whole country to the halt - but people outside of U.S. are not affected. If that happens I'm sure it'll not continue for long. Someone will be forced to something about it. And it'll be fun if you are not U.S. citizen - and most people aren't... That Microsoft even talks about this means they are pretty desperate...
Posted May 14, 2007 12:04 UTC (Mon)
by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989)
[Link]
Best thing to do with this bluff is simply call it; just make sure your poker face is better than mine. ;)
Posted May 14, 2007 11:03 UTC (Mon)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (3 responses)
There are only two solutions, I guess: either someone counter-sues, or the patent system collapses once and for all. Let's hope it is the second option.
Posted May 14, 2007 18:44 UTC (Mon)
by AJWM (guest, #15888)
[Link]
The Supreme Court's recent decision on "obviousness" probably rendered many more than that invalid, or will have when the dust settles. Each one has to be looked at individually, of course, but the "potential for damage" of each one has been greatly reduced.
Patent trolls just suffered a great reduction in their air supply.
Posted May 15, 2007 8:39 UTC (Tue)
by cjl7 (guest, #26116)
[Link] (1 responses)
Then again common sense must prevail... If "business" is all that matters the scope of our problems are bigger then any violation of patents!? (IMHO)
On a side note, China doesn't acknowledge any patents and they are going to be the worlds biggest market soon. So patents only apply to those who care it seems...
//jonas
Posted May 17, 2007 16:58 UTC (Thu)
by eklitzke (subscriber, #36426)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 12:08 UTC (Mon)
by eduperez (guest, #11232)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 14:53 UTC (Mon)
by fandom (subscriber, #4028)
[Link] (2 responses)
For a practical example, consider the Ogg and PNG formats
Posted May 14, 2007 18:03 UTC (Mon)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (1 responses)
The designers for PNG, Ogg, and other such things, in reality, have absolutely no say in whether or not they are actually patent-free. Sure they can avoid the compression stuff used in Gif, but that doesn't mean that there are not a dozen other patents that they may infringe on.
The closest analog I can think of right now is that Free software exists in a patent minefield. Both our 'friends' in places like IBM, Intel, Novell, and other such people and our 'enemies' like Microsoft and friends.
We are dealing with, literally, hundreds of new patents each month. Microsoft may get 80 or more patents awarded in one go.
We are dealing with a legal disaster of biblical proportions.
Despite the distastefulness of the situation probably the only think that is holding back on the Microsoft full out attack is that Microsoft still feels the desktop market is safe from Linux AND the Linux friends (Novell, IBM, Nokia, etc etc) together probably have more patents then Microsoft does.
It really depends on how valuable Linux and OSS is to these other large patent holders. Are they willing to stick their own necks out to protect Free software?
That's what I figure at least.
Posted May 14, 2007 22:43 UTC (Mon)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link]
Their isnt an attack yet, its only a shake down... but MS intention can only mean *full spectrum dominance*, they'll try to cut some deals advantageous to them with Novell, IBM, Nokia, etc etc... on the account of this treath. Users interests and small developers are out !
"" It really depends on how valuable Linux and OSS is to these other large patent holders. Are they willing to stick their own necks out to protect Free software? ""
Dont count too much on that. If the heat gets too intense they will settle with MS. OSS best defence rely on independent organizations like EFF, and the ability to invalidate patents and counter-attack wherever possible.
Posted May 14, 2007 12:43 UTC (Mon)
by Janne (guest, #40891)
[Link] (12 responses)
When you talk of "conflicting code", you are clearly thinking of copyrights, which could be fixed in that manner. But we are not dealing with copyrights, we are dealing with patents. In simplified terms: Copyright handles the actual code. Patents handle what the code does. Copyright could be circumvented by rewriting the code in to something else, and doing it so that it still basically does the same thing. You can't do that with patents, since the patent covers what the code does, and the re-written code would still be doing the same thing it did before the rewrite.
Posted May 14, 2007 12:57 UTC (Mon)
by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 16:25 UTC (Mon)
by phiggins (subscriber, #5605)
[Link] (7 responses)
MS or any other company could completely kill a project like Samba which needs to interoperate with their software by requiring the protocol to use a patented algorithm (like SSL with RSA). Patents are a serious problem for software in general. I just wonder if Microsoft could be slapped for monopolistic behavior by using their patents in such a way. I just don't know how these areas of law interact.
Network protocols are the one area I've seen patents wreak havoc, but I'm pretty sure that they could present serious problems for desktop software, too. What if all new MS Office file formats used encryption or compression that was patented (assuming decryption and decompression are also patented)?
Posted May 14, 2007 17:12 UTC (Mon)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (5 responses)
Worst possible scenario. Free software in the US effectively disappears. Checkmate.
Posted May 14, 2007 23:09 UTC (Mon)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (4 responses)
hmmm.. no! *Comercial* Free software in the US will be only for the big boys that pay to M$. About all repositorys, say perhaps 90% of all OSS, from all the independent developers will be lodge outside of US... Many developers will go on even if unemployed... M$ thinks they can cut substancial air out of OSS ( how incredible stupid they are!) but the only thing they get is richer out of the extortion, which after all, money and faul play is a banality expected from them anyway.
**For the end user life will go on as usual... its not even check**
Posted May 14, 2007 23:37 UTC (Mon)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (3 responses)
Patents would make liable not only the distributor, but also the end user. In effect, it would be as illegal to run any libre software without paying Microsoft as it is now to run a bootleg copy of Windows. Mix in a little BSA-like (or RIAA-like, if you want) techniques, to instill the fear of God in businesses and end-users as needed, and voilĂ ! Instant monopoly.
It's crazy, I know, but it would be the net result of recent moves by Microsoft. Their executives must be salivating in their fluorescent-lit offices right now. Probably not even them can imagine the situation going so far; a little FUD is all that is needed to keep customers for a few more years. The moment they start the first lawsuit is where IBM, Red Hat et al retaliate.
Posted May 15, 2007 14:47 UTC (Tue)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (2 responses)
And how many "user shops" around the world go with illegal windows ? The large majority i'm affraid, specially among the smallest ones in developing countrys. And that is a fellony everywhere. Well most of these patents are only valid in the US... so... no need to be a rebel here.
M$ is after the big money from the big shops and operators, essentially *only* in US.
Posted May 15, 2007 14:57 UTC (Tue)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (1 responses)
Besides, after the US take it for granted that software patents are good, and "violating" them is bad, then you can bet it will take little time to have them reenacted here in Europe. We should help strike evil things down at the roots.
Posted May 17, 2007 14:44 UTC (Thu)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link]
But another thought is that if OSS is so proficient, an organization to build a vast and good portfolio of patents, prior-art, trivialitys... isnt either a bad idea.
OSS can defeat 'them' at their own game.
Posted May 15, 2007 19:38 UTC (Tue)
by dark (guest, #8483)
[Link]
I remember when RSA and - particularly - RC5 were inserted into security
protocols almost without thought, often as the only must-support option.
These days, any such move would be met with an immediate outcry, and a
real justification would have to be given for excluding free software
implementations. Linux is pervasive enough that every standards body will
have at least one user :)
Posted May 16, 2007 2:58 UTC (Wed)
by marduk (subscriber, #3831)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 17, 2007 9:05 UTC (Thu)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link] (1 responses)
The rot set in when it was successfully argued that a general purpose machine plus a set of parameters (a program) could be a special purpose machine, and thus patentable; somehow over the years, the combination part has been forgotten, and the parameters themselves became patentable - and by extension, the high-level description of an algorithm which is converted into those parameters became patentable too. And therein lies the flaw* - source code cannot be directly executed, and is therefore not "a set of parameters" for a general purpose machine in any meaningful sense. It only becomes one when converted to a directly-executable binary representation. The "machine" in question is "cited computer + binary" (or, at a stretch, "computer + interpreter + script"); substitute a different computer and you need a completely different set of configuration parameters - ie. you've created a completely different machine. By allowing a system of rules that can be converted in a vast number of ways into a set of parameters, patents on software have become extended to cover precisely the "device for catching mice" idea that remains verboten in patents on physical devices.
What would it mean were patents restricted to a particular combination of hardware and object code? Well* - for one thing, source code is restored to "description of algorithm" status, which is generally a Good Thing! For another, it would mean that a separate patent would have to be obtained for each implementation on every kind of processor architecture, virtual machine, interpreter... which would render it trivially circumventable (in the worst case, just write a new VM and publish the two parts separately) and not impede progress in the art in the way that patents do today. And finally, since the particular implementation of object code is by and large determined by the particular implementation of a compiler, it's possible that simply recompiling source code with a different C compiler would be sufficient to be judged non-infringing - but that would almost certainly have to be legally ruled on.
* IANAL, this isn't legal advice, "To Serve Man" is a cookbook. In particular, I would love to hear from some real lawyers about whether this approach might be worth pursuing, whether it's already been shot down, etc.
Posted May 17, 2007 9:20 UTC (Thu)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 2:51 UTC (Mon)
by kwink81 (guest, #33926)
[Link] (8 responses)
"Gutierrez refuses to identify specific patents or explain how they're being infringed, lest FOSS advocates start filing challenges to them."
Sigh... This is annoying. Microsoft can't actually try to assault FOSS in court, that would let the FOSS community show that the alleged "intellectual property" is complete BS. That was the mistake SCO made. So they are simply going to stand up at every podium they can find and shout "Hundreds of patents!" it hope that less-educated CEOs get scared.
Maybe the best solution would be to bring to fight to them. The Software Freedom Law Center could sue Microsoft for slander. MS, in self defense, would have to reveal their patents to the world. That would give us the chance to either challenge them or work around them. Of course, the SFLC would need umteen million in cash sitting around in order to substain that kind of legal action, so that may be wishful thinking.
Posted May 14, 2007 10:27 UTC (Mon)
by macc (guest, #510)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 10:35 UTC (Mon)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (5 responses)
Reform of the US patent system is needed, plain and simple.
Posted May 14, 2007 16:48 UTC (Mon)
by bronson (subscriber, #4806)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 18:51 UTC (Mon)
by salimma (subscriber, #34460)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 15, 2007 9:17 UTC (Tue)
by AnswerGuy (guest, #1256)
[Link]
This would be U.S. patent armageddon. It would finally push the matter far enough into the light that Joe Sixpack would raise a stink about it.
Posted May 14, 2007 16:55 UTC (Mon)
by smoogen (subscriber, #97)
[Link]
Posted May 15, 2007 8:45 UTC (Tue)
by frankie (subscriber, #13593)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 18:39 UTC (Mon)
by allesfresser (guest, #216)
[Link]
Well, that's not saying much... especially since this article takes great pains to paint RMS and the FSF as being the stick-in-the-mud troglodytes that not only MS, but everyone in the "open-source" world are ever-so-patiently tolerating, kind of like the stuffy old uncle you wish you could get away from. I'm sure Microsoft would love it if everyone saw the FSF that way, but fortunately their daydreams haven't come true yet.
Posted May 14, 2007 4:23 UTC (Mon)
by pr1268 (guest, #24648)
[Link] (3 responses)
"...[Microsoft] asserts that one reason free software is of such high quality is that it violates more than 200 of Microsoft's patents." Somebody surely has a high opinion of themselves. What a load of mule hock! Some day (hopefully sooner) people (including Microsoft) will realize that FLOSS owes its high quality to the very open nature in which it is developed, not because it copies Microsoft. Seriously, though, Microsoft running around noisily claiming that the Linux kernel and related user space programs violate Microsoft patents without specifying exactly which ones reminds me of similar behavior by Joseph McCarthy in the U.S. Senate in 1950, running around claiming that the American State Department was infiltrated with Communists. Just my perception.
Posted May 14, 2007 4:37 UTC (Mon)
by salimma (subscriber, #34460)
[Link] (2 responses)
Regardless of whether software patents is a good idea or not (I personally think it's not), the USPTO and Congress have a serious conflict-of-interest problem here. Granting more patents earn them more money, and examining patent applications carefully cost them money. Plus, they don't lose anything for patents that are overturned. The Justice department should charge USPTO for the time wasted by patent challenges, if the patent ends up overturned because of USPTO's fault. That way they'd have an incentive to be more careful.
Posted May 15, 2007 10:36 UTC (Tue)
by egoforth (subscriber, #2351)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 19, 2007 22:33 UTC (Sat)
by pdundas (guest, #15203)
[Link]
A company which made and defended the invalid patent (if they were shown to be knowingly - rather than, say, negligently - ignoring prior art) could also be liable for consequential loss by the challenger - delay to product launch, etc.
Posted May 14, 2007 5:47 UTC (Mon)
by wilreichert (guest, #17680)
[Link] (20 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 6:06 UTC (Mon)
by bronson (subscriber, #4806)
[Link] (19 responses)
Hope PJ is rested. This could get far more interesting than SCO ever was.
Posted May 14, 2007 9:30 UTC (Mon)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (18 responses)
PJ's star is falling and fading, with only the faithful (admittedly a large group due to the global reach of the website) following her.
For those of us who don't want to deal with an FSF mouthpiece, we're going to have to find someone else, perhaps using Groklaw as a tool, but not a driver.
Posted May 14, 2007 10:39 UTC (Mon)
by briangmaddox (guest, #39279)
[Link] (2 responses)
THAT's what is not being reported fairly. What normally gets reported is that Google is helping piracy by hosting these videos. No one seems to remember that Viacom is complaining about having to follow the law they helped pass.
Posted May 14, 2007 11:59 UTC (Mon)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 20:31 UTC (Mon)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link]
> some of Viacom's behaviour stinks, but I don't think GooTube is
no, GooTube is whiter-than-white alright. why? because they are only the
Posted May 14, 2007 13:23 UTC (Mon)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link] (2 responses)
YouTube is also plain competition for the established entertainment networks. If they can taint YouTube's reputation to the point of it going away, they will do it. Now or later.
(Says one who has decidedly not participated in any such filesharing to this day, no time for that)
Posted May 14, 2007 13:58 UTC (Mon)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 14:08 UTC (Mon)
by vblum (guest, #1151)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 13:28 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
It looks like either jealousy or a grudge to me.
Posted May 14, 2007 14:14 UTC (Mon)
by b3timmons (guest, #40286)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 17:23 UTC (Mon)
by markhb (guest, #1003)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 19:25 UTC (Mon)
by b3timmons (guest, #40286)
[Link]
Posted May 17, 2007 9:15 UTC (Thu)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link] (7 responses)
(Your tendency to sling personal insults remains contemptible, of course. I'm especially amused by your apparent notion of the FSF as a dangerous secret conspiracy, with puppets and spies lurking in every corner and goals to which no free person in their right mind could possibly subscribe. Hmm... that sounds familiar, actually...)
Posted May 17, 2007 14:30 UTC (Thu)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (6 responses)
Non-infringing videos on GooTube are irrelevant to Viacom's case. How can they be? Viacom have no claim to them, and neither do they make a claim.
PJ's highlighting the fact that there are non-infringing videos on GooTube, implying that weakens Viacom's case, is a strawman.
And, BTW, just because someone has legal training doesn't automatically mean that their stated position is correct. There are lawyers on both sides of any case.
Posted May 18, 2007 4:53 UTC (Fri)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link] (5 responses)
Hypocrite.
Posted May 18, 2007 5:08 UTC (Fri)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link] (4 responses)
You describe me as "one of the faithful". Which is funny, because I don't know the first thing about this case, and I very seldom actually read Groklaw. About the only thing I do know for sure is that you despise the FSF and everyone who has anything to do with them with an almost evangelical fervour; and now I learn that you'll slander anyone who disagrees with you at the drop of a hat.
Fine. Drop me a line at lwn.id@tierveil.co.uk and give me something I can check out, and I'll do the same. Hey, I'm just some clueless nobody; I have nothing to hide. But dammit, you owe me an apology; and I think it's high time you put your cards on the table and told us who NigelK *really* is.
> just because someone has legal training doesn't automatically mean that their stated position is correct.
But it does make their opinion rather more likely to be correct than that of some random layperson, doesn't it? Which is why I asked for your qualifications to speak authoritatively about the US legal system. We already know PJ's. Without such disclosure, the only available conclusion is that the full extent of your qualification to speak on this case is your certainty that anyone criticised on Groklaw must be in the right.
Posted May 18, 2007 9:28 UTC (Fri)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 18, 2007 13:11 UTC (Fri)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 18, 2007 13:29 UTC (Fri)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 18, 2007 23:59 UTC (Fri)
by lysse (guest, #3190)
[Link]
My problem isn't with your opinions; it's with your reduction of the world to a couple of either/or choices, your apparent refusal to consider that there might be shades of grey or perspectives that haven't occurred to you, your tendency to treat your fallen idols in a manner I can only term despicable, and your dismissal of those who criticise you as "one of the faithful", or the like, apparently unaware that all you are dismissing is your own reflection.
So I'll try this once more, and after this I'm done. Listen, and please try to understand. *These people are not my heroes*. (I don't *have* heroes, as such - never have.) Where I think they're wrong, I'll say so; where I think they are right, it's because they are voicing my principles, not because I've adopted theirs; where I don't know enough to comment, I'll (try and) keep my mouth shut. My respect for the goals and actions of the FSF, and for its founder, is premised only on the fact that they seem to value freedom as much as I do, and if I thought that they were faltering in that I'd say so; as I've mentioned, I don't even pay much attention to Groklaw or PJ. If I wanted to put in the effort, I might be able to compile a list of mistakes I think they've made, or of points of disagreement - but *they're just not that important to me*.
It's not about them, or me - it's about *you*. These people are *your* heroes, and your behaviour toward them is that of the celebrity-stalker - irrational, creepy, manipulative, dishonest, self-abasing; ultimately the actions of someone who has no existence of their own. If you have a shred of empathy inside you, or an ounce of insight into your own soul, please consider what I've said, mourn the loss of your role models, and let them pass from your life. Because right now, your obsessions are consuming you; if you don't escape them, there will soon be nothing left... but I fear you have already passed that point. Delight me - prove me wrong.
Posted May 14, 2007 6:19 UTC (Mon)
by tavis (guest, #14187)
[Link] (3 responses)
Now that Microsoft has a cross-licensing deal with Novell that has customers AND has made these comments, doesn't that show that their actions have caused harm to their competitors (e.g., RedHat, Canonical, etc.)? In which case, the allegations either should be substantiated or they amount to false advertising/slander of title/etc. So can't someone threaten MS that they need to substantiate the allegations and explain which 235 patents are being violated by what programs?
Posted May 14, 2007 7:01 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (2 responses)
Nobody has this much money. The situation with patents sucks big way: you need a lot of money to fight even bogus patent - while patent owner can grind your business to a half meanwhile.
Posted May 14, 2007 7:57 UTC (Mon)
by PO8 (guest, #41661)
[Link]
…and this is where things get weird with free/open source software. US and multinational businesses (primarily Linux distributors, but also some of the for-profit and non-profit foundations involved in application development) can't just ignore the US patents and keep cranking out software without a court fight. However, much free software is still developed by an international community of dedicated individuals with no financial stake in their creations. Short of shutting down the Internet, I don't see how you keep them from continuing to do that. If you're looking for an analogy, witness the US fight to prevent the development and dissemination of software supporting strong encryption. Screwed a few US businesses up some, and was ultimately entirely futile. There are obvious differences between the crypto wars and the current situation, but the current situation is even less like a fight between two traditional companies (e.g. the IBM v SCO battle). I don't think this is just a clearcut fight like biz-vs-biz would be. If the war is on, it will be a strange, strange war.
Posted May 15, 2007 3:00 UTC (Tue)
by tavis (guest, #14187)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 8:19 UTC (Mon)
by jmorris42 (guest, #2203)
[Link]
No, SCO was a delaying tactic to buy time for them to come up with a strategy, something other than what is about to happen I suspect. But this is all they have, all out patent war. They know the risks, it could escalate into a real horror, it could even force Congress and the courts to reform the patent system.
They know all about network effects and just how fast a seemingly invincible marketshare can change. After all they only have to look upon the corpses they have left behind them. Lotus, Wordperfect, Netscape. There were times when suggesting any of them would be overthrown would have received only laughter. They are afraid that if they simply do nothing that the point of no return will pass them. Especially when they are paranoid enough when they are crushing their enemies. The thought of a foe they can't beat with their usual tactics has em spooked.
So since they really don't have another choice, they seduced Novell to the dark side to sow discord in our camp and offer a way for short sighted mega corps to opt out of the fight, weakening our ability to recruit allies and now they will attack. Without the Novell deal every fortune 500 corporation would be looking at a major open ended liability problem with no obvious way to throw money at it to get rid of it, thus they might be scared enough to call their pet Congressman.
Interesting times ahead!
Posted May 14, 2007 9:20 UTC (Mon)
by dark (guest, #8483)
[Link] (1 responses)
This might mean that they now expect the process in the EU to be
irreversible, though. We'd best be on our guard. Do they have something
planned?
Posted May 14, 2007 15:01 UTC (Mon)
by fandom (subscriber, #4028)
[Link]
And a stupid FUD at that, the supreme court just said that many software
Isn't it nice that Microsoft itself was responsible for that last
Posted May 14, 2007 9:20 UTC (Mon)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (11 responses)
235 patents in total:
42 in the kernel
The first question to be asked in any court is: given that the Linux-related source code is written separately mostly by people with no relation to Microsoft, how can these patents be valid non-obvious ones if independent coders can invent them themselves? And the follow-up question: just what proportion of your patent portfolio is as weak as these patents?
But we all know that these patents will never see the inside of a court room - MS is just interested in FUD, not actual enforcement.
Posted May 14, 2007 10:03 UTC (Mon)
by coriordan (guest, #7544)
[Link] (4 responses)
With patents, after your application is approved, anyone who implements that idea (or who has implemented it since you application was first filed!) is an infringer of your patent.
Posted May 14, 2007 10:23 UTC (Mon)
by NigelK (guest, #42083)
[Link] (3 responses)
Correct, but it certainly raises questions that MS might not want to answer.
Posted May 14, 2007 12:42 UTC (Mon)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 16:34 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
It does make sense that two guys can independently and simultaneously invent something. But when some "invention" is done in passing and second "independent inventor" does not even realize it's "invention"... this cast the doubt on the quality of said patent. Big time. It does not mean that the patent if bogus, but it certainly looks strange... After all patent must be novel and non-obvious. If someone invented the thing and not even realized that it's worth something... how can it be non-obvious ? Are all Linux developers geniuses ?
Posted May 14, 2007 16:45 UTC (Mon)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link]
In short, GNU/Linux developers (kernel+userspace) will be pictured as giving their work away and being against the holy Intellectual Property trinity (copyright, patents and trade marks), even if it is not exactly true. So nobody will be surprised that they do not patent their inventions.
Posted May 14, 2007 17:06 UTC (Mon)
by lmb (subscriber, #39048)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 20:12 UTC (Mon)
by rfunk (subscriber, #4054)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 20:37 UTC (Mon)
by lmb (subscriber, #39048)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted May 14, 2007 20:57 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Not really. Patents are created to better protect inventor. Inventor can be single person and if s/he has no resources to monitor all firms in existence - it's Ok. If someone is using your patented invention without patent - you can collect money for old violations easily. But if you do know about violation and do nothing - you effectively Ok this usage (Rambus DDR patents). You can change patent policy at any time - but again even this way has limitations (see Phillis CD patents for example). In short: once you've declared that you know that someone is violations your patent - better to act quick.
Posted May 14, 2007 20:49 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
There are differences and there are similarities. You can sit as long as you wish on your patents without losing them - but only if you can cite good reason for doing so (ignorance is good reason). Once you have a list - clock is ticking. After some time old violations can be declared too old, but new ones will be upheld. See Unisys and GIF fiasco: old violations were forgiven easily (Unisys had no real choice due to Doctrine of Latches), but new versions of the same programs required patent license. If Microsoft's patents are real and valid then each day of delay is costing them money.
Posted May 15, 2007 0:28 UTC (Tue)
by stephen_pollei (guest, #23348)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 10:50 UTC (Mon)
by gouyou (guest, #30290)
[Link]
Posted May 14, 2007 17:43 UTC (Mon)
by stock (guest, #5849)
[Link] (1 responses)
[1] SCO's
financial results are in
Seems 'the SCO Group' is on its way down. "Well done Darl McBride!"
Here's an old email i sent to someone in August 2003, when asked what i
knew of this new company called 'The SCO group' :
Like with Windows, the reliability of the Novell SuSE Linux desktop is
today harmed by 3rd party software in binary form, like the latest Flash
gear.
Posted May 15, 2007 4:19 UTC (Tue)
by pr1268 (guest, #24648)
[Link]
Fascinating e-mail and post! Thank you for sharing. Plus, I really like your analogy of Linux as a "branded" drinking water. Too bad tSCOg and McBride didn't pursue that business strategy (or not!).
Posted May 15, 2007 5:58 UTC (Tue)
by lewis (guest, #45263)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted May 15, 2007 15:20 UTC (Tue)
by sepreece (guest, #19270)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted May 16, 2007 10:14 UTC (Wed)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
You mean 98% of Microsoft's patents cover MS Mouse and MS keyboard ? Hard to believe: Linux distribution (like Debian) include software of all types. Yes, some kinds are not as advanced/professional as MS offerings (yet) but it's quite hard to find anything from MS without at least partial analog in Debian...
Posted May 16, 2007 13:47 UTC (Wed)
by sepreece (guest, #19270)
[Link]
I looked at a small sample (two groups of 50 patents). Based on the titles of the patents, no more than 10% seemed likely to involve anything that might be in the core components of a Linux distirbution (obviously, FLOSS is much broader than that and some of the distributions include large numbers of diverse applications).
Going deeper into the patents probably would find some additional ones that might be of concern, but would also eliminate many of tem as applying to specific inventions that aren't used in Linux.
My guess would be they chose a conservative number - patents they thought were pretty obviously infringed.
Posted May 28, 2007 3:06 UTC (Mon)
by KenWPeek (guest, #45462)
[Link]
Patent Law, is *NOT* the same as Copyright Law.
The *ONLY* thing the US government grants to the patent holder is: "The exclusive right to market the invention...". In this sentence, "market" is a verb. Let's look up the meaning of "to market" in Black's Law dictionary (use the older dictionary that was available at the time the law was written.) The verb "to market" means: "to sell, or offer for sale, or license the sale of". Also, when a patent is issued, the US Government is automatically granted a perpetual non-exclusive license to the technology for FREE.
If no money changes hands for a product, then the product was *NOT* "sold".
*ALL* distributors of free software that I know of GIVE AWAY FOR FREE the software-- though some of them charge a fee for the media and/or service of burning the FREE software onto a disk.
*NO* "end user" of a patented technology can be sued for "patent infringement", because they are *NOT* selling a product incorporating the patented technology.
Microsoft's assertions of "patent infringement" DO NOT APPLY TO END USERS, PERIOD. AND THAT MEANS CORPORATIONS TOO (which are just "paper persons".)
Microsoft's assertions of patent infringement DO NOT APPLY TO DISTRIBUTORS OF FREE PRODUCTS OF ANY KIND.
The only exception to this is for the non-GPL-type licenses (BSD, MIT, etc.), where the distributor of the software chooses to charge money for the software. Then, and only then may Microsoft's assertions of "patent infringement" apply, and then only if the patents are found to be valid, and only if the software sold uses the patented technology.
As a veteran of patent infringement lawsuits, allow me to explain how this all works.
In order to keep it's patent rights, a patent holder (Microsoft in this case) *MUST* begin proceedings against the alleged "patent infringer". This is called "due diligence", and there is a time limit set forth in case law for this. The clock begins as soon as the patent holder realizes that a patented technology is (possibly) being infringed. If you inform the alleged infringer within six months, you are on solid ground, and longer than that is "questionable" (you better have a good reason!) The proceedings begin by sending a "Cease and Desist" letter to the alleged patent infringer. The letter *MUST* state the specific patent number, and *MUST* state specifically how the person or company is infringing (or is "about to" infringe by offering a product for sale). For software products, this would at least show the product that the alleged infringer is offering for sale, and *HOW* that product allegedly infringes on the patent holder's technology. If this information is not provided, case law holds that the alleged infringer has *NOT* been "noticed" (given sufficient notice) of the infringement, and the process has not yet begun. The patent holder may *NOT* wait until sufficient damages have accrued before beginning to exercise "due diligence", because the court is likely to declare that the alleged patent infringer has been given permission (by "default") due to insufficient notice in a timely manner, and this *CAN* cause the patent to end up in the public domain.
So, let's assume that sufficient notice begins. The two parties may engage in a dialog to further define the alleged infringement, and if the alleged infringer then agrees that they are infringing, they can either decide to stop infringing immediately, or to work out a licensing deal with the patent holder. (The latter is the usual course taken.)
If the alleged infringer does *NOT* agree that infringement is taking place (for various reasons, like: 1) they are not selling anything or offering anything for sale, or 2) they think the patent is not valid due to one or more reasons, or 3) or they believe that their product uses a different technology than what the patent holder is claiming that they are using, etc.) The two parties will now begin court proceedings. This usually begins by the patent holder filing a lawsuit against the alleged infringer, who then in turn usually motions the court for a "show cause" hearing (which is almost always granted.) In this "show cause" hearing, the patent holder *MUST* show proof of the exact product that the alleged infringer *SOLD* (or offers for sale if no sale has yet occurred), and the exact manner and method that the alleged infringement is occurring. If insufficient evidence is provided that shows that clearly shows that infringement is taking place, the judge will dismiss the case, and that is the end of it. If the judge believes that there is sufficient evidence that infringement occurred, then a trial date will be set, and at this time the patent holder usually motions the court for injunctive relief (to stop the alleged infringer from selling the products in question until the matter is resolved in court.) In these kinds of cases, the motion for injunctive relief is usually denied, but the judge will order the alleged infringer to keep accurate record of all sales (in case they lose the case, the infringer will have to surrender all proceeds of any sales.)
So, as you can see from the above, Microsoft would never make it past the "show cause" hearing stage, because no products are being sold, and no there is no intention to sell any products. (Indeed, the GPL forbids the sale of the GPL'd software for any amount of money.)
END-OF-LAWSUIT. GAME OVER.
So (for example) if you download a FREE ISO image of "Ubuntu Linux" from a server in South Africa, burn the ISO image onto a CD, and install the software, Microsoft has no "standing" in court, because: 1) You are an end-user of the product, and you are not selling the product or offering it for sale, and 2) South Africa (wisely) does not recognize "software patents", and so no lawsuit can be filed in that country. In this case, Microsoft is simply left out in the cold, and can do *NOTHING* (without being counter-sued for a "frivolous lawsuit", and THEY would LOSE.)
So, unless you *KNOW* what you are talking about, please quit with all of the "worry talk". It is just scaring everyone, and is only *helping* Microsoft with their "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" [FUD] campaign.
Armaggedon
Plus the same thing that happened to SCO will happen to Mircosoft. All the patents that Microsoft tells us about will be researched and then debunked with lists of prior arts and anything else that makes the patent invalid.Armaggedon
I think that the folks at Microsoft are a lot smarter than those at SCO, and patents are a lot trickier to deal with than "copied code", which was pretty clearly a load of BS.Armaggedon
Armaggedon
It seems more interesting in the light of the Novell covenant thing.Armaggedon
Microsoft cuts the deal.
Microsoft emits this giant cloud of patent flatus.
Future trends?:
[market starts buying a lot of Suse]
[microsoft sells Office201x as C# binaries that run fine on Mono]
Armaggedon
In the end FOSS will end up being patent free 100%
That is, I fear, impossible. There is no way to render ten thousand patents invalid, or to work around them. Not only because of the amount of work required, but because of the money the whole process costs. And how do you work around overbroad patents, like: "Method and apparatus to send data over a computer network"? (Not that that one actually exists... only once).
> There is no way to render ten thousand patents invalid,Armaggedon
>There is no way to render ten thousand patents invalid,Armaggedon
China does have a patent system. It's just relatively new (~20 years old), and they're much more "practical" about enforcing patents than we are in America.China
Any that can't be re-examined the FOSS community will develop around and remove the conflicting code.Armaggedon
I think you are confusing patents with copyright. With software patents, you cannot 'develop around and remove the conflicting code', you would need to remove the offending functionality. Think about this: Amazon patented the one-click-buy; now, you cannot create an internet shop that provides one-click-buys, now matter how you code it.
So you code around it by having a two-click store.Armaggedon
which were designed from the start to be patent free.
Designing to be patent free is does not mean that they actually are patent-free.Armaggedon
"" Microsoft full out attack is that Microsoft still feels the desktop market is safe from Linux AND the Linux friends (Novell, IBM, Nokia, etc etc) together probably have more patents then Microsoft does. ""Armaggedon
"Any that can't be re-examined the FOSS community will develop around and remove the conflicting code."Armaggedon
>patent covers what the code doesArmaggedon
I thought that patents cover an implementation, whereas the underlying algorithms remain free, as in speech, which also seems to resemble a greased pig in its current un-graspability.
I'm amazed that people have already forgotten the RSA patent problems. RSA is a popular cryptographic algorithm whose patent expired in 2000. Prior to that, it was used in SSL, PGP, IPSec, and various other popular pieces of networked software which were properly licensed by proprietary software vendors, but Free Software users couldn't use them in the USA. There is simply no way to code around RSA support. Many free programs also supported El Gamal and other algorithms, but not having RSA support caused major compatibility problems because most proprietary software didn't support the non-patented algorithms.Armaggedon
Armaggedon
I just wonder if Microsoft could be slapped for monopolistic behavior by using their patents in such a way. I just don't know how these areas of law interact.
I would think that Microsoft would just offer "reasonable" patent licensing terms. Even if these conditions would kill free software, Microsoft could then argue that they are not being monopolistic because all competitors can license their patents. (Or, to be precise, that they are not using their existing monopoly as an unfair advantage.)
"" Worst possible scenario. Free software in the US effectively disappears. Checkmate. ""Armaggedon in a puff of smoke!
It is not so easy, I fear. Most people are not rebels, nor can you expect them to be.
Armaggedon scenarios, IANAL
"" Patents would make liable not only the distributor, but also the end user. In effect, it would be as illegal to run any libre software without paying Microsoft as it is now to run a bootleg copy of Windows. ""
True, but think about our poor colleagues in the US. Why do they have to pay a Microsoft tax when the brave open world has worked out its own operating system from the bottom up?
Those are only the beginning
I've supported "no" softwware patents in Europe for almost a decade.Those are only the beginning
Fortunately, I think that era is now ending. The tug-of-war between ODF
and Microsoft's XML format will be the last great decision between
patented and unpatented protocols, and in the future a protocol that
excludes free software will simply not be able to dominate the
marketplace.
Armaggedon
Patents cover ideas. You can patent an idea w/o even having an implementation.Armaggedon
Actually, that was specifically not supposed to be the case*. Patents were designed to cover implementations - an idea simply could not be patented, only a machine which implemented that idea. A patenter could only patent his particular implementation of a mousetrap; he could never patent the simple idea of a device for trapping mice, nor only a fragment of a device - and that would remain true regardless of whether or not anyone had thought of a device for catching mice before. Likewise, what would be judged infringing is the reuse of that implementation in any context (not just the rodent-trapping domain), not the use of a different design of device to accomplish the same end. Armaggedon
(To clarify - you don't have to have implemented what you describe in your patent, nor does it have to work; but it must be possible for someone else to build what you are claiming from the details you give in your patent.)Armaggedon
This article is actually much more fair and informed then most on this subject. It sure doesn't make me any more happy, though.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
One solution would be to Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
make a list of all M$ patents
and then start contesting them
in alphabetical order.
Maybe, but that sounds like chopping the head off a hydra - whilst you're getting one patent invalidated, MS will have filed several more.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Interesting you should say that... I was picturing the same analogy but in reverse. Worst case, Microsoft declares total war on Linux and starts using patents to gun down development teams at Red Hat, IBM, etc. Each team that gets lopped off in Sunnyvale or Westford will just grow back in Bangalore or Shanghai. Irritating, yes, but not a big deal from the global picture.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Unless you're a programmer paid by a US company to work on open source. Getting your job outsourced for legal reason would be much more infuriating than getting your job outsourced for cost reasons.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
If this results in any significant number of lost jobs in the U.S. then you can imagine that everyone who loses his or her job ... and every relative of each of them ... and any co-workers who were barely missed by the axe ... and *their* relatives will all be leaning on representatives and senators.Take it to your Congress Critter
That is another hydra problem.. the only way to slay both of them is to use Iolaus's solution. Cut the head off and burn the head. By showing how broken the patent system is you can convince the honest politician to fix the system. By showing how corrupt Microsoft can be in bribing politicians.. you can show how to fix that system. Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Ack, US software patenting is evil, plain and simple.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
>This article is actually much more fair and informed then most on this subject.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
It's McCarthyism all over again
Sadly, the way USPTO granted overly-broad patents without checking for prior art, Microsoft's claim is probably true in a very twisted way: nobody can write anything meaningful without violating some patent that one of the big tech companies (IBM, Sun, Microsoft, etc.) holds. The culprit is the patent system, not the author of the infringing software.It's McCarthyism all over again
This is one of the better patent reform suggestions that I've heard. Not that I'm holding out hope for any meaningful change, but it seems fairly straightforward and workable so long as there is some easily identifiable criteria to place blame. The charges could be done on a sliding scale based on the number of claims in a patent that are overturned, so that the costs increase with the amount of neglect.It's McCarthyism all over again
A way to do that might be to make the US Patent Office liable for the legal costs of the successful challenger. costs
FUD from a rat backed into a corner. Guess they didn't learn anything from SCO.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
But you gotta admit, it's nice to see Microsoft preparing to do its own dirty work this time.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Don't put all your hopes in PJ - she's now showing her lack of business and legal acumen by ranting against anyone who has any dealings with Microsoft, together with siding with Google in the Verizon lawsuit (already we have her FUDing by implying that Verizon is claiming *all* of YouTube's contents infringes Verizon's IP, and after setting up that strawman publishes a "YouTube of the Day" feature to "prove" that not everything on GooTube has anything to do with Verizon - Verizon might have questionable business practices, but here they have a case and it deserves to be reported fairly).Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
You mean the Viacom lawsuit? If so, I'd argue that Viacom does NOT have a case. Viacom was one of the companies that pushed hard to get the DMCA passed. When Google gets DMCA takedowns, they comply. What Viacom wants is for Google to spend their time and money to do Viacom's work for them. I'm sorry, but Viacom got the law they wanted (at the expense of people's legal rights like make backups of certain media). All Google legally has to do is remove videos when they get a takedown notice. Although if you want to do away with things like safe harbor then Verizon would be involved and fight on Google's side :)Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
My bad, Viacom it is. And, yes, some of Viacom's behaviour stinks, but I don't think GooTube is whiter-than-white here, either. This case really is two pigs fighting in the mud and, IMHO, could go either way - both sides make good points.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
I'm sorry, but I think you are wrong:Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
> whiter-than-white here, either. This case really is two pigs fighting
> in the mud
enablers of a _whole_ _awful_ _lot_ of video-communications. Suing them
because some user put up one of Viacom's films is like suing the phone
company if I connect my answering machine to my CD player and put it to
play Metallica. In the latter case, Metallica should/could sue _me_ for
the unauthorized public performance of their work; in the former, Viacom
should/could sue _the_ _user_ for the unauthorized public performance (or
copy) of their work. But GooTube has *absolutely* *nothing* to do with
it. The work of policing all of GooTube to see if users are not
infringing my copyrights is _my_ work, not GooTube's. Period. Once I see
someone doing something murky, I alert GooTube and they put the offending
video down at once. So, yes, they are whiter than white.
Substantial non-infringing use has to be proven somewhere, whether questioned in the suit or not. Napster et al could not credibly demonstrate this, I believe. PJ has a point
Proving substantial non-infringing use is a slam-dunk here. It's the substantial infringing use that Google has to worry about.PJ has a strawman
I respectfully submit that I am not a strawman. If you wish to stir trouble, please find another forum. PJ has a strawman
Your rants against PJ would be more impressive if you didn't follow up to every message on LWN that mentions PJ with another rant.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
I'm not sure about the Verizon lawsuit details, but as for the rest of your words--they don't seem to make any sense. Why are you looking for a "driver"?Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
I think he's referring to the way that PJ and Groklaw essentially "drove" the FLOSS community opposition to SCO v IBM, and saying that the community needs a different person / site to collate and coordinate the response to the MS allegations.
Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Thanks for the translation. Since a driver against the Microsoft patent threats would be defending free software, I am mystified why anyone would _not_ want the driver to be sympathetic to the organization that promotes free software. Moreover, PJ already has had a warmup with the SCO case and is good at it.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Please outline your qualifications with regard to American law, with particular reference to why you feel able to state so categorically that PJ - who has many years as a paralegal under her belt, let's not forget - is incorrect in her interpretation of the Google-Verizon case.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
One of the faithful speaks... and quickly demonizes the critic, too, swiftly distorting the opposing view.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
> One of the faithful speaks... and quickly demonizes the critic, tooMicrosoft takes on the free world (CNN)
No, actually, I want to expand on that.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
As much as I'd like to exchange emails with an angry loon with a bruised ego, poor reading comprehension skills, and the urge to protect FSF-related personalities at any cost, I think I'll pass. I have more important things to do with my life, like clipping my toenails.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
...I've been eaten by a troll, haven't I? Sorry, LWN.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Sigh... no... You just have to accept that the people you respect are wrong sometimes.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
But the problem I have with you is that you've reduced that to a binary choice. You think your former heroes are wrong, so you attack them without pause or mercy, or necessarily even consideration, making exactly the same accusations in thread after thread, regardless of circumstance. When someone disagrees with your assessment of their faults, you charge them with being an unthinking supporter. That's how you're coming across.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Time for a cease-and-desist letter?
Time for a cease-and-desist letter?
Can't afford to fight?
I'm not suggesting fighting all 235 patents. The point of a cease-and-desist letter would be to force M$ to either tell us what the patents are or to shut up. The FSF and other legal groups (e.g., SFLC) don't necessarily have a business to grind to a halt; or, they could do it on behalf of a developer. They could claim harm by saying that their client's protected speech (of sharing his/her code with DB/Credit Suisse/etc.) has been threatened. Hmm, maybe someone should ask them.....Time for a cease-and-desist letter?
I'd say that it is officially 'on' as of now. Microsoft has to know that mere saber rattling won't work. All it will do is provoke a response, a cry for them to 'bring it' as is already happening. They had to know what sort of reaction to expect, there ARE some smart people working there.Begun this patent was has
I assumed that all this time, they were waiting for software patents to be
ratified in the EU before launching their attack. If this fight starts in
earnest, it will be a powerful argument for the people opposing software
patents in the EU.
Sounds like they jumped the gun!
I assume the same thing, and we may very well be right, after all they Sounds like they jumped the gun!
haven't launched their attack yet, this is nothing but FUD.
patents are invalid and, even if they are valid, they don't apply outside
the USA.
veredict?
This is just Microsoft FUD, but also double-edged FUD that can seriously damage Microsoft later:More FUD, and double-edged at that
65 in the GUI
45 in OOo
15 in email clients
68 in others
Just because a second person had the same idea, that doesn't mean the idea was too obvious to be patentable.That's not how patents work
Just because a second person had the same idea, that doesn't mean the idea was too obvious to be patentable.That's not how patents work
Which questions? Ciaran is right, nobody will question the patent system because of that. Remember Elisha Gray? The poor guy got to the patent office with his telephone invention just hours after Bell had patented the same thing. That does not make the patent any more obvious or the process any more flawed.
That's not how patents work
That's not how patents work
Good point. However, I'm not sure the argument would fly too far before it is shot down... After all, Linux developers (Torvalds, famously) are known for being geniuses, releasing code freely, ideologically being against software patents, supporting copyleft, and being raving communists... erm, this last part is bogus ;)
That's not how patents work
The question it does raise though is that, if they know which patents are affected, why they are not contacting the supposedly infringing parties after they as patent holders have become aware of it. Does that not make a potential law suit rather more difficult if they have to explain why they "tolerated" such for months and years?More FUD, and double-edged at that
Patents don't work like that. While trademarks must be protected or else lost, patent tolerance
violations may be freely ignored without diminishing your power to enforce when you want
to.
Thanks for clarifying that. It confirms my opinion about the usefulness of patents as they are; they seem to be designed by someone in love with smoke, mirrors and FUD. Sigh.tolerance
tolerance
tolerance
Also people have repeatable and publicly been requesting that microsoft identify what patents they think are being infringedrequest for disclosure
35USC287:
TITLE 35--PATENTS
PART III--PATENTS AND PROTECTION OF PATENT RIGHTS
CHAPTER 29--REMEDIES FOR INFRINGEMENT OF PATENT, AND OTHER ACTIONS
Sec. 287. Limitation on damages and other remedies; marking and notice.
says "(3)(A) In making a determination with respect to the remedy in an
action brought for infringement under section 271(g), the court shall
consider-- (i) the good faith demonstrated by the defendant with respect to
a request for disclosure, ...
(B) For purposes of subparagraph (A), the following are evidence of
good faith:
(i) a request for disclosure made by the defendant;
(ii) a response within a reasonable time by the person receiving
the request for disclosure; and
(iii) the submission of the response by the defendant to the
manufacturer, or if the manufacturer is not known, to the supplier,
of the product to be purchased by the defendant, together with a
request for a written statement that the process claimed in any
patent disclosed in the response is not used to produce such
product.
The failure to perform any acts described in the preceding sentence is
evidence of absence of good faith unless there are mitigating
circumstances. Mitigating circumstances include the case in which, due
to the nature of the product, the number of sources for the product, or
like commercial circumstances, a request for disclosure is not necessary
or practicable to avoid infringement.
(4)(A) For purposes of this subsection, a ``request for disclosure''
means a written request made to a person then engaged in the manufacture
of a product to identify all process patents owned by or licensed to
that person, as of the time of the request, that the person then
reasonably believes could be asserted to be infringed under section
271(g) if that product were imported into, or sold, offered for sale, or
used in, the United States by an unauthorized person. A request for
disclosure is further limited to a request--
(i) which is made by a person regularly engaged in the United
States in the sale of the same type of products as those
manufactured by the person to whom the request is directed, or which
includes facts showing that the person making the request plans to
engage in the sale of such products in the United States;
(ii) which is made by such person before the person's first
importation, use, offer for sale, or sale of units of the product
produced by an infringing process and before the person had notice
of infringement with respect to the product; and
(iii) which includes a representation by the person making the
request that such person will promptly submit the patents identified
pursuant to the request to the manufacturer, or if the manufacturer
is not known, to the supplier, of the product to be purchased by the
person making the request, and will request from that manufacturer
or supplier a written statement that none of the processes claimed
in those patents is used in the manufacture of the product.
(B) In the case of a request for disclosure received by a person to
whom a patent is licensed, that person shall either identify the patent
or promptly notify the licensor of the request for disclosure. "
so they need to disclose what they claim is being infringed or the remedies they try to obtain might be limited.
One thing that is still and will be for a long time in the picture is the anti-trust legislation. Microsoft Corp has to take care of not going in a frontal way against competitor. Europe is still waving structural remedies against the company, and going after Linux could bring them back on the radar of a couple of prosecutors. They have to be extra careful: Microsoft worst enemy might be Microsoft itself ...Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Its seems the role of "The SCO Group" as Microsoft's intermediary to
take on Open Source, linux and its backers, like IBM, has come to an
end. Darl McBride has lost and the grapes are not only sour, they are
almost vanished, as today's SCO has no remsemblance with the SCO of the
1980's and 90's [1]. Microsoft knows it, and has to do something to get
the Patent FUD/fear game going again. It's astonishing to see that
Microsoft now will do the dirty work themselves.
SCO fails, Microsoft now handles the dirty work
Hi,
Last year, in September 2002 I met Darl McBride in real life by sheer
coincidence. Actually i spoke with him for an half a hour. It was a
joined Caldera/HP symposium called GeoFORUM on 25 September 2002 at the
Holiday Inn Hotel, Haagse Schouwweg 10, Leiden. It was the announcement
in Holland of Caldera's new company name : "The SCO Group Inc."
Although Darl McBride was not listed on the GeoFORUM announcement letter,
he did show up to give an unannounced speech as the new CEO or their
renamed company (formerly Caldera Inc.) The SCO Group Inc. Now that I
think of it, why would McBride not announce himself before the conference
started that he would give a speech?
Anyway, I talked to McBride about the role of Linux, and how the Linux
thing should be incorporated into UNIX business. I told him, that Linux
and other OSS stuff are ready for download, like wood in the forest. It
only takes experienced carpenters to make it to use. The problem is
however McBride is a experienced business man only. and he fired his own
squad of experienced SCO UNIX carpenters.
McBride said the following. He was there to tell that Caldera was
surprised to see that SCO UNIXWARE and SCO OpenServer license card and
media sales were the largest income at Caldera's. That's why the decided
to a company name change into "The SCO Group Inc."
McBride asked the audience why people kept purchasing SCO OpenServer. The
answer was, "Because it just works, all your software runs, and it
doesn't come with unneeded bloated features". Then he asked why Linux
like water was free to drink. I told him that when you drink water from a
unknown source you might get ill. If you buy your water from a reliable
source your fine. So labeling and branding the Linux water was a way to
earn a decent income from Linux.
So it all comes down to, as a business being liable for the products you
sell. And if you screw up your company's product, you will have to
suffer. McBride turned almost white :) So this dude is phony IMHO.
cheers,
Robert
--
Robert M. Stockmann - RHCE
Network Engineer - UNIX/Linux Specialist
crashrecovery.org stock@stokkie.net
Well McBride did listen allright. SCO OpenServer 6 has become a bloated
and rare used version of UNIX on x86. Caldera Linux has become extinct,
and its twin brother Novell's SuSE Linux, adopted from SuSE G.m.b.H from
Bavaria, has never before had so much funded criticism from within its
user/customer community, where the reliability of its Desktop is
questioned.
Fascinating!
If M$ has been filing patent applications at the rate of over 3,000Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
per year since 2004 as asserted they must have well over 10,000 by now
and by Ballmers best FUD only 235 are infringed by FOSS?
This is only 2 percent!
Since a RedHat distro plus Open Office tools are more than sufficient to
run a perfectly good business. This implies that 98 percent of M$ patents
cover bells and whistles in their own OS and tools that are essentially
completely irrelevant.
Microsoft's business is broad enough that I would expect their patent portfolio to cover many, many things that have nothing to do with operating systems...Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
MicroPatent shows 15864 patents applied for by or assigned to Microsoft.Microsoft takes on the free world (CNN)
|STOP IT PLEASE ~ THERE IS *NO* DANGER.
PLEASE STOP ALL OF THIS NONSENSE!
|
