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ELC: The embedded Linux nightmareELC: The embedded Linux nightmarePosted Apr 18, 2007 4:41 UTC (Wed) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270)Parent article: ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare
Gleixner's talk had a distinct implication that the vendors were at fault and the community had a right to expect more of them.
The vendors, of course, see things differently. Unlike computers, whose users have been taught to expect to have to replace the system software regularly, devices are generally expected to remain the same from the day they are shipped to the day they are discarded. Most users would not like to see that change.
Vendors, therefore, tend to like to get the software very stable before they ship the product, and to use the same software base to build a given product (and updates, refreshes, and successors of that product) for a long time.
So, vendors tend to be working on old releases, even though they want current features. Thus it's not surprising that he found a vendor release that was based on 2.6.10 but was actually closer to a later release, based on patch size.
The point is that this is not evil on the vendor's part, it's just a difference in needs and expectations. In many cases it's not that the vendors don't want to "give back", it's that they can't. When they find a bug or make an enhancement, their base is so far from the community's that the community has no interest in what they have to say.
The vendors aren't dumb. They know that community gives leverage and that having more eyes working on something will make it better, faster, and many of them would love to have their work mainstreamed so they don't have to maintain it. But they are often working on things that literally nobody else in the world cares about (like devices for custom hardware) or on old releases or just have different priorities than the community developers.
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ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 18, 2007 5:59 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] The way he was talking was that it was more then a use vs them situation.
It's that the embedded Linux developers aren't listenning to the advice that the Linux kernel developers are trying to give them.
It's not that the Linux kernel developers expect more 'back' from the embedded developers, it's just that the embedded developers are being very foolish by not working closer with them.
For example it's been stated many times that with the Linux kernel the easiest and cheapest way to get hardware support a wide range of kernels, from old to to new, is to get your driver into the mainline kernel.
That if your a developer who, for whatever reason, has to support a wide veriaty of kernels it's MUCH MUCH cheaper and more effective to get your driver into the kernel were it gets latest updates and bug fixes and then _backport_ your drivers to older kernels.
Starting off developing with older kernels then trying to maintain your own patches going forward onto newer kernels is suicide.
With the Linux kernel backporting is cheaper and much easier then forward porting. In addition once you get your driver into mainline kernel then that driver is essentially self-maintaining. Usually only a little bit of maintainance and regression checking should be needed for each new kernel. So it's a win-win.
At least that is what I've been told and I've read. It seems that hardware developers almost universally see dramatic benifits from working with mainline kernel developers.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 18, 2007 10:43 UTC (Wed) by gouyou (subscriber, #30290) [Link] How is it from your usual ditribution? When you install a server you do not want to update the distribution in the next 3 to 5 years when you either retire your server or repurpose it.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 18, 2007 12:35 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] You can keep old version on your server, but active distribution development always goes in "unstable/testing" branch (where latest and greatest stuff lives). Embedded developers worry about a lot of things and like to develop in stable branch. Then, few years down the road, they try to switch from 2.6.10 to 2.6.20 (or something like this) when it's clear that they actually need to switch. But linux kernel is not designed to be used this way! Either you change your driver over time while tracking changes in kernel - or you need MAJOR overhaul when you need to switch. Nobody is trying to keep things compatible and reduce amount of changes needed low! And this is when things are going straight to hell: embedded developers blame linux kernel developers (why the hell they change internals so much?) and linux kernel developers blame embedded developers (you were asked year ago if you still need devfs or not - there were no complains, why you are whining NOW?).
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 18, 2007 20:43 UTC (Wed) by vmole (subscriber, #111) [Link] Either you change your driver over time while tracking changes in kernel - or you need MAJOR overhaul when you need to switch. Or, you get your driver *into* the standard kernel, and let the main kernel developers keep it up to date with respect to kernel changes, so that all you have to worry about is fixes specific to your device, many of which will *also* be provided by the kernel community.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 18, 2007 22:34 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] Then they say, "But... give up control of my code? Do you have the brain worms??"
The Cirrus reply mentioned in the article had this attitude. Companies seem to believe that, unless their engineers are the sole committers, their driver will turn into, I don't know, Paris Hilton or something. They won't let "their" source code be modified by the more skilled and qualified Linux kernel team, even though it produces a fairly significant cost savings for them.
It's bizarre. I hope this attitude is just a hold-over from the proprietary 90s and disappears as the new generation of programmers takes over.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 19, 2007 3:02 UTC (Thu) by markcox (guest, #29577) [Link] It's bizarre, how people engaging in a seemingly 'civilized' discussion resort to making negative remarks about celebrities to make their point. Is this lwn or digg.com ?
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 19, 2007 7:21 UTC (Thu) by Zenith (subscriber, #24899) [Link] It's bizarre, how people engaging in a seemingly 'civilized' discussion resort to making negative remarks about celebrities to make their point. Is this lwn or digg.comI actually found the comment quite funny. Why should we always keep the discussion insanely clean and to the point? Even programmers need to laugh once in a while, and I did :) And really, do you think that Paris Hilton cares much for what programmers have to say about her? ;)
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 21, 2007 21:39 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] Sorry markcox, I did not intend to offend. Allow me to rephrase...
They're afraid "their driver will turn into, I don't know, a frothing cow or something."
Is that easier on your sensibilities?
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 22, 2007 0:49 UTC (Sun) by markcox (guest, #29577) [Link] haha. Yes much better thanks :)
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted May 2, 2007 7:57 UTC (Wed) by blujay (guest, #39961) [Link] Does this mean that you equate Paris Hilton to a frothing cow?
For the record, I quite enjoyed the original, along with the brain worms. =)
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted May 1, 2007 18:19 UTC (Tue) by ParisHilton (guest, #45014) [Link] Yes, I find this statement offensive! I've been a dedicated LWN reader for years and I've never been so insulted!
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 19, 2007 8:17 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] The companies' developers obviously don't believe that, or given theoverwhelming male-dominance of the software development field, they'd all be *rushing* to hurl all their code at the kernel devs.
;}
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 19, 2007 5:01 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] Or, you get your driver *into* the standard kernel, and let the main kernel developers keep it up to date with respect to kernel changes, so that all you have to worry about is fixes specific to your device, many of which will *also* be provided by the kernel community. Not in the books, I afraid. Main kernel developers will probably not accept non-working driver for non-working hardware in main kernel and for embedded developers time where driver work and hardware is available is endpoint: it exist, it works, what else will you need ? Any sane PHB will stop development at this point: it's time to produce and sell the gadget, not bother will useless "mainstream integration"! Engineer can be used for some other products... Yes, few years down the road (when time to upgrade base version of kernel will come) this approach will prove troublesome, but to understand that you need to look few years down the road - rare for PHB.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 19, 2007 7:06 UTC (Thu) by net_bh (subscriber, #28735) [Link] Any sane PHB will stop development at this point: it's time to produce and sell the gadget, not bother will useless "mainstream integration"! Engineer can be used for some other products...It is hard to believe that embedded developers are doing one-off gadgets _all the time_. In my experience, there is usually a product line, a few products on a common platform and most drivers can be carried forward across the product line with few changes. And even across SoC platform generations, a surprising amount of code can be reused. So merging with mainline does help. And even if you are doing one-off gadgets, mainlining today ensures that 5 years down the line when you want to do an update on the gadget, your code has been maintained for free in the latest mainline kernel. Yes, few years down the road (when time to upgrade base version of kernel will come) this approach will prove troublesome, but to understand that you need to look few years down the road - rare for PHB. I have good PHBs then. It is our policy that as soon the product is released, we start merging the code back into upstream/mainline, etc. So at any time, we deal with a very minimal (mostly non-existent) diff with mainline.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 19, 2007 21:41 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] The way it sounds to me is that embedded developers are simply very used to having to rewrite everything all the time.
That's what they expect, that's what they do. So they make sure to do it as quick and dirty as possible and move onto the next project. Minimal time invested, minimal effort wasted.
In contrast the Kernel developers, in order to work most effectively, are tryhing to enforce a development methodology on these people. Effectively the Linux developers are telling them that instead of quick and dirty and get finished as soon as possible.. they should go quick and clean and never ever stop developing.
Culture clash.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 20, 2007 14:03 UTC (Fri) by Max.Hyre (subscriber, #1054) [Link] I have good PHBs then.Oxymoron. It means that your Bs aren't PH.
ELC: The embedded Linux nightmare Posted Apr 20, 2007 14:54 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] "In my experience, there is usually a product line, a few products on a common platform and most drivers can be carried forward across the product line with few changes."
Yes, but the OS version used for the platform is typically not changed over the life of the product line (or changed only at very long intervals), so there's usually no need to maintain the drivers over that period except for hardware or feature tweaks, which would have to be done separately anyway.
That said, it would make sense to push the drivers to mainstream anyway, for the usual benefit of community review. The problem in doing that is that by the time the first product is ready to ship the kernel version is not current and bringing the drivers up to current would be added work that would be hard to justify just by the possibility of finding bugs that haven't already manifested. [In many cases the drivers can't be posted prior to shipment because they would expose product details that we want to keep secret as long as possible for competitive reasons.]
I think we're going to get better at this, over time, but it's a learning process. Thomas's advice was useful; I just thought his talk was a little one-sided.
"We want more drivers, no matter how 'obscure' [...]" Posted Apr 19, 2007 16:42 UTC (Thu) by GreyWizard (subscriber, #1026) [Link] [...] devices are generally expected to remain the same from the day they are shipped to the day they are discarded. Did I miss the part where Gleixner advocates forcing users to upgrade the firmware on their mobile phones at gunpoint? Working with and contributing to the community doesn't force anyone to change firmware on devices that have already shipped. The point is that this is not evil on the vendor's part, [...] As far as I can see Gleixner attributes the problem to hubris and ignorance, not evil. When [the vendors] find a bug or make an enhancement, their base is so far from the community's that the community has no interest in what they have to say. Being so far from the community's sources is an unmistakable sign of a serious software design mistake. There's no way these vendors know more about integrating kernel features than Gleixner and the rest of the kernel community. But they are often working on things that literally nobody else in the world cares about (like devices for custom hardware) [...]
"We want more drivers, no matter how 'obscure' [...]" Posted Apr 20, 2007 1:45 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] Gosh, you put a more negative spin on what I said than I intended. I enjoyed Thomas's talk (and the chat we had this afternoon) and agree with many of his points. I plan to take some of his suggestions back to work to see if I can sell them.
I'm not sure I consider "hubris and ignorance" a lot nicer to be called than evil; at least evil implies you're doing it on purpose and with awareness. I don't believe he suggested any such thing, just that we were missing an opportunity and could gain by working differently. We're not ignorant of the choice, we have just chosen differently. We don't think we know more than Thomas, except perhaps about the specifics of our business and our needs.
Being far from the current version is just a business choice, not a design failure. We build platforms that last five years or more with only tweaks in the components, rather than replacements. It's hard to argue that this should be done differently. Version shifts are typically done at the next major rev of the platform, but bugs are found over the whole life of the platform.
"We want more drivers, no matter how 'obscure' [...]" Posted Apr 20, 2007 15:50 UTC (Fri) by GreyWizard (subscriber, #1026) [Link] I don't believe he suggested any such thing, just that we were missing an opportunity and could gain by working differently. He certainly phrased it more tactfully than I did, but people usually miss opportunities either because they don't know about them (ignorance) or because they think they know better and are mistaken (hubris). Being far from the current version is just a business choice, not a design failure. By this reasoning every design decision is actually a business choice and there is no such thing as a design mistake. We build platforms that last five years or more with only tweaks in the components, rather than replacements. It's hard to argue that this should be done differently. Perhaps that's why no one is arguing that. Gleixner seems to be arguing that the particular way vendors attempt to reach that goal is flawed, not that the goal itself is a problem. Version shifts are typically done at the next major rev of the platform, but bugs are found over the whole life of the platform. No device vendor needs to change 10,000 kernel files just to have bug fixes relevant to their devices when a complete operating system distribution for general purpose computers changes only 8,000. As Gleixner says, the reasons vendors give for use of special, closed, vendor kernels don't hold water.
"We want more drivers, no matter how 'obscure' [...]" Posted Apr 20, 2007 21:56 UTC (Fri) by filker0 (subscriber, #31278) [Link] I worked on a project as a contractor that used a kernel 2.6.10 distribution obtained through Timesys on a PPC440GX. Because of the process at the company the work was done for, and the industry standards at work, we ended up unable to change the kernel version as new kernels came out as we would have had to start from scratch on the approval process for the kernel for each upgrade. The kernel release will never change for the life of the product, though it may be patched, and the application software updated. There is only one customer for the product. The hardware is unique to the platform, and any new version of the platform will use different hardware that would not be compatible with the drivers.
Because of the above, it was decided not to attempt to mainstream the drivers that we wrote. Having the community maintain the drivers for us would be nice, but how is anyone going to test them without the custom ASICs and FPGAs that they control?
I believe that it is for reasons like the above that many embedded developers don't try to put their stuff back in the kernel -- they end up using out-of-date kernel versions, they don't update the kernel version for the life of the product, and the hardware is custom and unique to the particular "box".
"We want more drivers, no matter how 'obscure' [...]" Posted Apr 21, 2007 12:52 UTC (Sat) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] And, unfortunately, your employer missed the gain from mainstreaming the drivers. The community obviously can't test the drivers for you, but there have been changes to the kernel that might result in your drivers needing janitorial-grade changes (the change of the argument list for interrupt handlers, as one example - LWN maintains a list of changes). These changes will be made by the community for you if the driver is mainstreamed.While the changes will only be compile tested, if your employer decides to make the jump from 2.6.10 to 2.6.20 (for example), they'll find that the drivers at least compile, and don't break the kernel. This reduces the porting load; instead of having to find out what's changed, update your drivers, get them building, test them and debug them, you're down to just testing the drivers, and debugging them as needeed. Further, you can use git to look at what's been done to your drivers, and thus have a good chance of spotting cases where someone's misunderstood what the hardware does as they clean up the drive. It's a difficult way of thinking to come to from a proprietary world; what other "upstreams" will maintain code they cannot test in a building and theoretically working fashion?
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