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GNU/Busybox ?!?GNU/Busybox ?!?Posted Mar 22, 2007 10:48 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304)In reply to: GNU/Busybox ?!? by landley Parent article: The road to freedom in the embedded world
You appear to have a severe case of creditophilia. Why does it *matter* who gets credit? Isn't the *software* more important? (If it isn't, what's the point in working on it at all? Why not just start an advertising campaign or something?)
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GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 22, 2007 11:04 UTC (Thu) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] Why does it *matter* who gets credit?It's part of the motivation to do something for the community. There are few totally unselfish acts in the world. Next question: Why does the FSF think that the GPL contains an advertising clause to the effect that Linux (and indeed *any* kernel: cf "GNU/Solaris") *must* be named GNU/Linux, regardless of the project leader's wishes, even though advertising clauses are incompatible with the GPL?
GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 22, 2007 16:14 UTC (Thu) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link] > It's part of the motivation to do something for the community. There> are few totally unselfish acts in the world.
I'm not in it for praise. I do lots of things anonymously, things I'll
But it PISSES ME OFF when somebody else takes credit for my work (yes if
Adding retroactive strings to their own work ("I know you thought this
GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 22, 2007 18:18 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] To be pedantic, stealing charity donations is theft (the original owner no longer possesses the donations). Likewise stealing a street sign.
Taking credit for something that is not your work is not theft (well, not in UK law and I'd be astonished to find it's theft in any common-law country). Misrepresentation may or may not be an offence: intent is all, as is usual in the law. Promoting a political platform you disagree with is also not a crime (well, not in non-totalitarian regimes, anyway, and I can't really see how one could use any piece of non-censorware to promote a political platform. Busybox ls is a political statement now?!)
(disclaimer: IANAL but seemingly half my relatives are various forms of IP lawyer so I hear a lot of this sort of stuff...)
GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 22, 2007 18:14 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] The GPL does contain an advertising clause, of sorts: clause 2c. However, this doesn't require that you name your program GNU/anything, nor does the FSF claim that it does.
RMS's rather quixotic one-man campaign to rename Linux-the-OS (as opposed to the GPLed Linux-the-kernel, which he has never suggested renaming) is not required by the license. He just thinks it's a way of giving the GNU Project credit.
Other people think this is silly: and perhaps it is (I take no stand on this myself: people can name things whatever the hell they like as far as I'm concerned). But legal concerns are not involved.
GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 23, 2007 9:08 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Next question: Why does the FSF think that the GPL contains an advertising clause to the effect that Linux (and indeed *any* kernel: cf "GNU/Solaris") *must* be named GNU/Linux, regardless of the project leader's wishes, even though advertising clauses are incompatible with the GPL?Ah, I know the answer to that one: it is a straw man. The FSF never wanted to rename the Linux kernel, or indeed any other kernel; just the complete operating system. Quoting from the GNU page: There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is not the operating system. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in a combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU, with Linux functioning as its kernel.Furthermore, the FSF does not think that any software "*must*" be called by any names. The FSF suggests that you call the complete system GNU/Linux, but they don't go about suing or otherwise coercing anyone about it (unless you call Stallman's obnoxious corrections when being interviewed a form of "coercion"). You know, there is a difference between a polite request and an obligation. Quoting again: Whether you use GNU/Linux or not, please don't confuse the public by using the name Linux ambiguously. Linux is the kernel, one of the essential major components of the system. The system as a whole is more or less the GNU system, with Linux added. When you're talking about this combination, please call it GNU/Linux.You may or may not disagree with this position, but misrepresenting it is not a solid way to have a discussion.
GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 23, 2007 10:49 UTC (Fri) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] Oh please...
In practice, the FSF (and it isn't just Stallman) is trying to get the *generic* term for a Linux system to be GNU/Linux. You can see this in their interactions with the media (cf. the recent Information Week articles) that they will not tolerate references to "Linux" in any articles featuring interviews with them.
This is in spite of the embedded field where the GNU portion is fractional - and can be replaced with something else if need be.
And don't get me started on the low proportion of GNU software in most Linux distros... The FSF is just one player of many these days, and certainly not more worthy of a credit in the system name than the other players (the ones who are *really* responsible for Linux's current success, like Apache, KDE, Mozilla, OpenOffice, OpenSSH, MySQL, Perl, Python, etc, etc...).
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 23, 2007 12:19 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Your original message pretended that the FSF wanted to rename the kernel, and implied that they were somehow using coercion via the GPL to get there. Nonsense. Now you want to discuss if they have any right to name the operating system, fine, let's discuss it once more, but this time with concrete numbers.First, the embedded field is not the primary focus of Stallman or the FSF, as you may or not have guessed. It plays a growing part in their concerns however. IMHO it is reasonable for the FSF to ask people to use the name "GNU/Linux"; after all, it was Stallman who came out with the idea of a libre, complete operating system, and they are the only ones providing it: GlibC, GCC, Emacs, Bash, Core- and FileUtils and GNOME; with the known exception of the kernel. Counting all of these makes out for a reasonably large portion of GNOME-based distros such as Ubuntu Linux. Many of the software packages you mention are either alternatives or not part of the operating system, but whatever, let's compare them. All in all the GNU project is probably the largest software provider in most GNU/Linux distributions, with at least 15 million lines of code, vs 8 for OpenOffice, 6 for Linux, 4 for KDE and 3 for Mozilla. Yes, I have counted them. As others have pointed out, the amount of software provided by the FSF is dwindling with time, since other large packages are being added to most distributions. That can only be seen as a good thing, and the FSF doesn't seem to worry about that. Again, more important than the quantity of software is the fact that GNU is the only project willing to develop (not just distribute) a complete operating system. They have provided the necessary pieces of infrastructure that nobody else cared about. (Once Landley's GNU-less project is released we can revisit this discussion if you want.) Linux itself has already been replaced. So the answer for me is a resounding yes on three counts: history, numbers and necessity say that it is reasonable for the GNU project to get a mention in the complete system name. Now if only popularity is to be measured, as you seem to imply, then GNU should indeed be disregarded.
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 23, 2007 13:30 UTC (Fri) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link] "We did a lot of work, therefore we should get more influence than that stated in our GPL on the projects which use some of our code."
Nope, Free Software doesn't work like that. Shame on you.
If you're not happy with just being listed in the CREDITS file (or equivalent), then don't release code under the GPL. Find a licence with an advertising clause rather than working outside the licence you choose.
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 23, 2007 14:25 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] Argument-chop-and-change much?
I really *really* want an LWN killfile. It only needs one name in it so
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 31, 2007 8:29 UTC (Sat) by muwlgr (guest, #35359) [Link] ... voice from the crowd : "petegn! petegn!":>
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 23, 2007 18:30 UTC (Fri) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link] > IMHO it is reasonable for the FSF to ask people to use the> name "GNU/Linux"; after all, it was Stallman who came out with the idea > of a libre, complete operating system, and they are the only ones > providing it...
Ok, let's go to http://www.ibiblio.org/jmaynard/ and read the bit right
> This site contains copies of distribution tapes, other source and
I repeat my earlier assertion that for most of the 1970's proprietary
Which gets us back to "the FSF wasn't being visionary, it was being
> Linux itself has already been replaced.
Plus existence of BSD and MacOSX and the Posix certifications of Windows
Closer to home, Shawn Jackman built a subset of the BusyBox applets under
What Linux pioneered was modern open source collaborative development
The Cathedral and the Bazaar was a paper about how Linus's working style
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 24, 2007 0:40 UTC (Sat) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Ok, let's go to http://www.ibiblio.org/jmaynard/ and read the bit right above the download link:I'm not sure I follow you, the existence of large libraries of public domain code (even complete operating systems) at a moment in time is nice, but the real problem would come when IBM and the rest changed their view on copyright and started asserting it. Stallman set out to make an OS which could not be made proprietary. I repeat my earlier assertion that for most of the 1970's proprietary software wasn't even an issue on the hobbyist programmer community's radar.True, that is precisely why Stallman was being visionary by being concerned before the rest of the world saw the problem of the proprietary approach everyone was taking. Which gets us back to "the FSF wasn't being visionary, it was being reactionary and conservative from day 1".A bit contradictory (or again I'm not following you), Stallman saw the problem not only with proprietary development, but also with public domain and BSD-style licenses. That is why he created the GPLv2 and the FSF. Why is that "reactionary"? The Cathedral and the Bazaar was a paper about how Linus's working style differed from that of the FSF. (The cathedral was specifically the FSF.)I have seen this assertion of yours a couple of times, and it is what made me answer this post: where do you get this impression? Even in the abstract we read: I discuss these theories in terms of two fundamentally different development styles, the ``cathedral'' model of most of the commercial world versus the ``bazaar'' model of the Linux world.Or this paragraph: Perhaps this is not only the future of open-source software. No closed-source developer can match the pool of talent the Linux community can bring to bear on a problem. Very few could afford even to hire the more than 200 (1999: 600, 2000: 800) people who have contributed to fetchmail!I don't think Raymond considers GNU as "closed-source". There are a thousand examples all over the text where "cathedral" is equated with "closed-source", "proprietary", "commercial" etc. It is true that FSF development seems to be more "cathedralicious" or centralized than other free software projects, but saying that they were the epitome of cathedral development is quite misguided IMHO. The FSF insisted on physical copyright assignments with a signature on a piece of paper, and still do. Linus often merges over a hundred patches in a day, that kind of bureaucracy just wouldn't work.I don't see why not. The piece of paper is just needed once per developer; after that you can contribute as much as you want. Given that developers do not change that much, that many of them come from companies (which can ease much of the paperwork) and that copyright assignment is not needed for one-line patches, it is not a significant entry barrier.
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 24, 2007 17:48 UTC (Sat) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link] > > Ok, let's go to http://www.ibiblio.org/jmaynard/ and read the bit> > right above the download link: > > I'm not sure I follow you, the existence of large libraries of public > domain code (even complete operating systems) at a moment in time is > nice, but the real problem would come when IBM and the rest changed > their view on copyright and started asserting it. Stallman set out to > make an OS which could not be made proprietary.
IBM didn't make the existing versions proprietary, they stopped releasing
IBM's big change of heart was called the "Object Code Only (OCO) Policy",
Here's the final report of SHARE's attempt to get IBM to change its mind
And an history article putting it in context:
> > I repeat my earlier assertion that for most of the 1970's proprietary
Going from a world that had less than a hundred thousand computers in it
> > Which gets us back to "the FSF wasn't being visionary, it was being
He was striving to maintain the status quo. Return to the glorius past.
He may have been right, but that doesn't change the nature of his
Fast forward to _today_ and people are going "oh, what great new insights
> > The Cathedral and the Bazaar was a paper about how Linus's working
From Eric Raymond directly, while editing The Art of Unix Programming
It's in the book, though, if you look for it:
> But few of us really thought very hard about what we were doing, or
A couple times he's talked about a specific 1996 conference that Tim
> I don't see why not. The piece of paper is just needed once per
Needed at precisely the wrong time.
I touched on it here: http://lkml.org/lkml/2002/1/29/9
Most developers start out as casual contributors. A line here, a bugfix
> developers do not change that much,
In a project with 1000 semi-regular contributors, the top 20 don't change
The point is where do they come from? Let's look at a couple of
Con Koliavs: scheduler dude. When he got into Linux his day job was as
Andrew Morton, current #2 in the development community. Only got involved
Even the early adopters did stuff before Linux. Alan Cox used to do
Back when I read the first year or so of the linux kernel mailing list, I
Now ask yourself: how many of those people would have just wandered away
Attracting and breaking in new developers is extremely important to the
Rob
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 26, 2007 12:58 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] `A line here, a bugfix there' do not and have never required copyright assignment papers.
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 26, 2007 16:53 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] Sure they did. Back in the late 90s, I wanted to submit a 15 line rather obvious bugfix to the viper elisp package. It took a snail mail letter and three weeks to clear up the copyright assignment. I almost didn't bother.
I do hope you're right and the FSF is being more realistic now. Not to long ago, though, they required papers for just about anything. I think I still have the proof in my filing cabinet!
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 27, 2007 14:37 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] The rule-of-thumb the FSF uses is `if the fix is trivial, no assignment is required: things ten lines long or less are assumed trivial'.
It looks like you slipped in just above that limit.
(I find it very little effort to do the occasional copyright assignment dance: the *really* annoying part is getting your employer to disclaimer-of-rights forms, because even if they agree they can be *so* damn slow at it it's not true. I've had to wait >6mths for these sometimes.)
Should it be GNU/Linux Posted Mar 26, 2007 21:55 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] [about RMS, and his visionary qualities]That is like saying that Mohandas Gandhi was reactionary because he just wanted to "return to the glorious past" when the English did not rule India. True, but lopsided. Stallman wanted not to return to a naïve past where kind people shared code, but go on to a new situation where people wrote free software because they wanted it to be free, and companies (a new concept) pooled their effort. Guess what, it works. [again about RMS, and his cathedralicious model of development]Ah, you worried me. For a moment I thought it was there, plain for all to see as a central recurrent theme and I had missed it: that instead of talking about closed, proprietary software Raymond was speaking about his old buddy Stallman all the time. But it is sort of hidden, isn't it?
GNU/Busybox ?!? Posted Mar 22, 2007 16:03 UTC (Thu) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link] > You appear to have a severe case of creditophilia. Why does it *matter*> who gets credit?
I don't care about getting credit for my work. It's a gift.
I am deeply offended by somebody ELSE taking credit for my work. That's
I'm sorry you don't understand this distinction. Neither does the FSF.
Rob
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