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Pleasing everyone...Pleasing everyone...Posted Mar 14, 2007 0:03 UTC (Wed) by ewan (subscriber, #5533)In reply to: Pleasing everyone... by emkey Parent article: Dell: what sort of Linux systems would you like?
I think you're rather missing the point that Dell are a hardware
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Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 0:16 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] Thats a nice ideal, but not realistic. I want the latest video cards for instance and I expect them to be fully functional. If I can't get that I'll just buy the same laptop with Windows. I'm far from alone in this opinion.
Dell is a business. They need to satisfy the needs of their customers. The hard core "OSS or die!" camp is a very small minority of the world. I have no objection to Dell providing for people who fit in that camp but if they are smart they'll also provide for the majority of potential customers.
As I've noted here before, what I care about is realistic alternatives to windows. For many applications a crippled Linux distribution is not a realistic alternative to Windows.
I wish the "OSS or die!" camp would spend more time working to eliminate software patents and DRM and less time telling me what I should believe and how I should live my life.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:06 UTC (Wed) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link] I don't see anyone here telling you how to run your life - if you'rehappy running a proprietary system that's fine, run one. Some of us want the technical and other advantages that come through having a system that's Free, and it only seems good sense to let a potential supplier know that.
In my experience what cripples a Linux system isn't having Free drivers
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:15 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] So you are perfectly fine with Dell supporting a Linux distro that includes non OSS components?
As for the binary driver issue, I find a fair amount of the trouble is caused by the portion of the community that is openly hostile to them and work in various ways against binary only code. Frankly I'm amazed things work as well as they do all things considered.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:47 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Well there is a good reason why Kernel developers avoid supporting binary-only drivers.
Also there is a very good reason why companies like Redhat won't support machines running binary drivers also.
If Dell was to ask my opinion I'd tell them to steer clear of any and all binary drivers if humanly possible. No ndswrapper hacks, no binary blob'd wireless, no fake-raid drivers, no propriatory 3d video drivers.
The only exception would probably be Nvidia for graphical workstations, and that's only because you have absolutely no choice if you want high performance 3d graphics.
This is because it will just raise support costs and especially Dell would not be able to assist end users if you have bugs in those drivers or devices.
For example you can get good-enough 3d performance out of a onboard Intel 945g chipset. Full Sata support, even with NCQ. Gigabit network, surround sound speakers. And for laptops you should be able to get very good wireless support and very good sleep support with good battery life.
If at any time there is bugs in your hardware or your having stability issues with a paticular driver it's not a big thing to work with kernel developers, X.org developers, and Intel to get the situation quickly resolved so that you can supply replacement drivers easily for any buggy ones that the distribution may ship with by default.
(for desktops, TV out (even HD), DVI, and even Dual DVI can be taken care of through a ADD2 card. If you have trouble getting something to work, then X.org developers and Intel treat that seriously)
With ATI or Nvidia or anybody else any problems you have with Linux and chipsets will be put on the back burner and will never get the same level of support or treatment from them as if it was a Windows issue and it probably can take upwards to months to get a issue resolved.
So if it's your job to have thousands of machines, some with some unique uses and configurations, to support then Open Source would be the best way to go when it comes to Linux.
That's what I figure, at least.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 1:56 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Oh and if anybody is curious about the dual DVI for Intel 9xx onboard...This one: http://www.wintecind.com/pegasus.htm
There are 2 versions, a low profile that uses a Y splitter to provide dual DVI out and then a full-height model that has 2 regular DVI out.
I don't know how well they work or what you have to do to tell the Intel driver there is two monitors or anything like that. (I would like to know, personally)
Here is a wiki page on the subject.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 2:08 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] <quote>This is because it will just raise support costs and especially Dell would not be able to assist end users if you have bugs in those drivers or devices. </quote>
Dell already lives in the world of binary only drivers. They know it well and seem to do just fine. In fact they are large enough that I suspect in many cases they have NDA with vendors and access to source code. At the very least they have a lot of leverage. Meaning they probably could in fact get those bugs fixed.
Look, I don't like binary only drivers either. They are not going away any time soon however and they are an evil I'll live with given the alternative.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:18 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] The only binary driver you have to put with on modern hardware nowadays is Nvidia driver if you want high performance 3d graphics.
For everything else there is perfectly good hardware with perfectly good Free software drivers.
If your building a PC to run Linux there is now _zero_ need for any sort of binary only driver, with the one exception I stated above.
As far as I am concerned the need to support binary drivers is almost obsolete. The _only_ reason you need them is if you have users that are previous Windows users and you want to try to get them to migrate them away from Windows and onto Linux. (which is a pretty decent excuse)
This is obviously not a concern for Dell since they will be picking the hardware specificly for Linux compatability.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:28 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] PS. I am talking about PC hardware, btw, not nessicarially all hardware in general for all purposes.
I understand there may be a lot of specialized hardware devices to which their are no alternatives for that can be very problematic for the whole 'lets purge binary-only drivers from our life' concept.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 2:29 UTC (Wed) by Zack (guest, #37335) [Link] >I wish the "OSS or die!" camp would spend more time working to eliminate software patents and DRM and less time telling me what I should believe and how I should live my life.
And I wish some people would use less inflammatory language and forgo setting up strawmen. Looks like we both can't always have what we want.
Dell asks (potential) customers what they would like in a potential GNU/Linux machine in a survey. They are able to selectively pick hardware that run with free drivers if there is enough demand. It's a good opportunity to lobby for that, especially since they make laptops, and one can't just replace the parts for that afterwards.
How giving a business that asks for it your opinion boils down to "telling me what I should believe and how I should live my life" I fail to see.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 3:02 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] Sorry, but I'm very tired of the "OSS only/binary drivers are evil" camp. And it isn't because I'm unsympathetic to the basic premise. Get rid of software patents and DRM and binary drivers will be far easier to get rid of. For now, attacking binary drivers is focusing a lot of counter productive effort in the wrong place.
Asking DELL to design and market an OSS only laptop is a potentially significant added expense for a product that will almost certainly be inferior from a technical perspective.
Lets get them to ship and support some version(s) of Linux. There is a huge potential for positive movement on a lot of fronts if they do.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 10:45 UTC (Wed) by ewan (subscriber, #5533) [Link] You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that there's a lot ofimportant hardware around that is only supported by binary drivers. There isn't. As others have noted about the only serious sticking point remains the nVidia driver, and that's not relevant for a lot of systems.
While there are wireless cards, RAID cards, and even the occasional
This isn't all about idealism either; there's some of that, I'm sure, but
As for laptops, I've got a shiny new ThinkPad, and everything (with the
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 14:36 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] As I've already said, DELL can and does support binary drivers on Windows, so I don't see support of such drivers in Linux as a problem. And frankly RedHat is big enough that they could support them as well if they so chose.
It is my impression that full support of modern 3D hardware does not exist in free drivers. IE, ATI & NVidia. I haven't looked closely at this in awhile and could be wrong. With the continued growth of DRM related laws and standards don't assume this will ever change or that the tide won't turn back in favor of binary drivers. I'd REALLY hate to see that happen personally which is why I don't think obsessing about binary drivers at the OS end of things is correct. Removing the motivators/requirements for them up stream is where the vast majority of the effort should be focused.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 14:43 UTC (Wed) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] Two other points, I don't have any objections to people pushing vendors for free drivers or specifications. What annoys and frustrates me is people vilifying vendors who provide only binary drivers. Support for Linux in any form is the first step. Encouraging vendors to go the full way to an OSS driver is great but there are very real and growing reasons why that course of action is non trivial.
Second, victory will come through binary drivers being a zero issue. IE, none being needed regardless of the hardware in question. Victory will not come by trying to eliminate the choice of binary drivers at the kernel end.
Pleasing everyone... Posted Mar 14, 2007 18:43 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Of course, running 99% free software is better than running 0%.But a significant part of the advantages of free software are lost (wholesale) when running binary drivers. Ease of distribution without licensing worries, ease of support, vendor independence, accountability, stability, and the ability to reproduce your system are important points that are partially lost with that simple 1% -- even worse if that 1% is in the kernel. Do you think people will recognize that the remaining proprietary software is responsible for their troubles, or just blame and disregard free software altogether? I fear that "Linux" (i.e. Ubuntu Linux, RHEL or whatever) will be the scapegoats.
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