Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3

Posted Jan 28, 2007 19:11 UTC (Sun) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link]

That process definition shows how far behind schedule the GPLv3 is. It's now basically February 2007 and the third discussion draft is 4 months late. The "latest possible release date" is less than 8 weeks away. Even if they got draft 3 out today, that's hardly enough time to have any meaningful discussion.

Please read carefully: the third draft was only listed as possible, not certain. Given how long ago the process was announced and how easy it was for me to find ways to participate, I just do not buy any excuses of not being able to have meaningful discussion about it.

Except that never happened. Maybe Eben didn't realize that they _were_ participating using their preferred means of work? Their position statement was quite clear. Why didn't he just reply to it in his blog entry? In fact, I can't find a clear, authoritative reply anywhere. Just the clarification page which is so dismissive that it's not clear the author even read the kernel position statement.

You are leaving out this part from Moglen:

I appreciate the positions taken publicly by the kernel developers. To be clear, the process of deliberation in which FSF and everyone else has been engaged since January is not only a process of taking positions. It also involves listening to the positions others have taken: it's the effect of listening as well as talking that gives deliberative democracy its effectiveness as well as its legitimacy.

I think you misunderstand what it means to participate. Participating means agreeing to minimum standards expected of everyone. In this case it meant a process of not only speaking but listening -- even to others who may not entirely agree with them. Yes, they could have participated using their preferred means of work, as long as that involves listening at some level. Moglen tried to give them special treatment here, but even this was not good enough.

You must admit that they were in effect asking to be treated with more favor than other participants. Again, a warning sign was Torvalds expecting to see an early draft before other participants. How can issuing the position statement publicly at a relatively late date to put Moglen on the spot not be seen as a political move? A clearly unproductive thing is exchanges of position statements and critiques which are simply at too large of a granularity to make any sense here. Even the deliberation on lkml does not function in any way like this. Moreover, I think all of us should appreciate that deliberative processes have many challenges, such as maintaining a high S/N ratio, and that there must be inevitable tradeoffs, such as representation. So I am glad Moglen did not respond too much in his blog, since I think that would have threatened the process itself in any number of ways. Think about it.

You suggested I google for the mailing list, "which you will find shows a lot more activity for Committee D than you suggested." So how am I supposed to know that Committee D mailing list archives even exist? I can't read minds. Lessee... 4 messages in November and none since then? Doesn't that demonstrates exactly the sort of inaction that I was talking about?

The D resources page notes the mailing list, hence the guess that there must be archives. The only demonstration is just a matter of degree of activity. I think you wrote earlier that the last activity was March, but now it is November. However, I fail to see your point about activity. Different activity levels occur in many different projects for many different reasons. Claiming a certain standard here requires far more substantiation than you have given.

I agree that some discussion must be private. But almost all of it? You've got to be kidding me. That's an absurd claim to make. Sure, have one private mailing list/committee, but why not try to have at least *some* important discussion in the open?

No one entity claimed or prescribed any level of privacy for the process as a whole, of course; the participants themselves set their own terms. In at least one of the committees with some privacy, Committee B, we can see minutes of their meetings. Moreover, you should give more credit to the great effort put into the public draft commenting system.

Even so, much discussion did turn out to be private. Is it unreasonable to guess at why that might be: FSF being stretched to the max to encourage public participation, non-paid public participation in Committee D, relatively large stakes for corporations, etc.?

I am sure the process could have been improved. The web site should have done more handholding, for example, and there is never enough publicity. As an ordinary user, I should have done more earlier to make suggestions for the site, for example. In a sense, I have come around to agreeing with you about non-free aspects of the process. In particular, I think money talks, as usual, even here. One could argue that it boils down to the four freedoms versus money. Moreover, the process has involved tradeoffs. However, in no way does there seem to be some overarching covert plan.

bronson, I can see that you are trying to make your points more carefully; improving even more would get you better attention than my meager attempts.