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Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3Posted Jan 27, 2007 0:39 UTC (Sat) by alexbk (subscriber, #37839)In reply to: Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 by sbergman27 Parent article: GPL 3: An Open-Source Earthquake? (CRN)
Nowhere they had promised you'd get a personal response; I reckon with the amount of
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Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 0:49 UTC (Sat) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link] """unless you asked them to drop anti-Tivo language or other major points """
It appears that we mostly agree. There have been no significant changes to GPLv3 from draft 1 to the present. There are unlikely to be any between now and its official inception. And the FSF is not expected to give any reasons.
For a moment, there, I thought we might *disagree* on these things. ;-)
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 3:15 UTC (Sat) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] When you open *anything* up to public comment like this, it goes without saying that comments which amount to 'your goals are completely wrong, you should scratch the entire idea' aren't likely to be implemented. So what? Do you really expect them to read your peanut-gallery screechings and suddenly withdraw the idea and announce that v2, riddled as it is with known exploits, is perfect forever and all time? Please, get real.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 18:33 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] I don't remember the kernel guys saying that.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 23:31 UTC (Sat) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] Well that's exactly what some of them have said, boiled down to the essentials. They like the loopholes that v3 is being designed to close. The only way to make someone taking that position happy with v3 would be to abandon the fundamental reason for the existence of the GPL, all versions of it.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 0:07 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] They like the loopholes that v3 is being designed to close. They haven't say such a thing, they said that GPL should not try to get into areas that aren't properly a code license's. Also, GPLv2 gives certain specific rights, what is wrong with with wanting to give just that ones? Sure, GPLv2 would gain a lot by cleaning up the language, and making it (more) compatible with non-US laws. Besides, the 4 freedoms (and GPLv2) haven't ever talked about "If you get a device running free code, you are entitled to run anything else you want on it". I can certainly see uses for open source that require (for complying with regulations, for safety, etc) running only certified programs. Sure, the most talked about case is restricting users access to digital content, but nothing GPLvX could do will make any difference for or against that, but it will hurt other uses badly.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 0:57 UTC (Sun) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] They haven't say such a thing, they said that GPL should not try to get into areas that aren't properly a code license's. Also, GPLv2 gives certain specific rights, what is wrong with with wanting to give just that ones? Sure, GPLv2 would gain a lot by cleaning up the language, and making it (more) compatible with non-US laws. The GPL has always applied to distributors, so why should it not be adjusted to whatever new distribution methods such as Tivos that have developed in a decade and a half (incredibly long in this biz) since v2? To limit rights as in v2, are you not aware of the exceptions language in v3 that allows certain restrictions to be imposed? Besides, the 4 freedoms (and GPLv2) haven't ever talked about "If you get a device running free code, you are entitled to run anything else you want on it". I can certainly see uses for open source that require (for complying with regulations, for safety, etc) running only certified programs. Sure, the most talked about case is restricting users access to digital content, but nothing GPLvX could do will make any difference for or against that, but it will hurt other uses badly. Just a trivial google search on the terms "gplv3", "medical", "devices" gives as the top hit: http://fsfe.org/en/fellows/ciaran/... which is a recent summary of thought which has existed for some time now and which throws your concern here into doubt. The bottom line is that the GPL has always aimed to uphold the four freedoms, and with this protection now diminished from loopholes, v3 is needed to fix them.
Certifiable Posted Jan 29, 2007 23:07 UTC (Mon) by GreyWizard (guest, #1026) [Link] Many things (glassware, candles, ladders, power tools) that might maim or kill someone if carelessly handled, yet I am allowed to own and even modify them if I comply with regulations myself. So I'm afraid I can't share your enthusiasm for a world where I am denied as many choices as technologically possible in the name of safety. I would rather assume responsibility for my own actions and live in a free society.
Also you are mistaken about the "four freedoms" enumerated by the FSF. Number one is "the freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs." To do that I must be able to run modified software on the devices I actually own unless we suppose I have unlimited resources. Releasing software under a license that ensures this freedom more strictly than GPLv2 might not change the world but it seems worth trying -- after all the same thing was said about GPLv2 once.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 6:07 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] "[The kernel guys] like the loopholes that v3 is being designed to close."
Arker, that's an absurd thing to say. Most of them are very happy with v3, they just think it goes a little too far when it comes to DRM. Where did you get the idea that they want it full of loopholes?
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 29, 2007 22:20 UTC (Mon) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] I did say *some* - I'm quite aware that there is considerable difference of opinion.
But the ones who have been making the anti-gpl noises are indeed propounding a position that says the loopholes are good, they don't need to be addressed. They say they don't *want* to prevent companies following Tivos lead and effectively making the software non-free. As long as that's their position, they won't be interested in version three, they're going to stay with version 2, and they aren't likely to have anything useful to contribute to the v3 discussion, since they don't agree with the purpose of the thing to begin with.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 17:51 UTC (Sat) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] When you submit a comment, it is passed on to 4 committees of about 130 people. They consider the comment and try to form consensus on what, if anything, should be done. They then pass that on to RMS who makes the final decision. According to members of the committees, which are mostly made up of non-supporters of FSF, RMS is changing the GPL drafts in response to their input. Links to the committee membership lists are here:http://www.fsfe.org/en/fellows/ciaran/ciaran_s_free_softw...
And here's the newsforge article where committee members say that RMS is acting on the comments:
The goal is to write a licence, so yes, when you submit a comment, the committees work on the licence instead of contacting you for a dialogue. That seems like the smartest use of the committees' time.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 19:00 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] Everything seems open when you're a member of the secret committees? That's hardly surprising.
Besides, that article is from 5 Aug 2006. The kernel position statement was from 15 Sep 2006 (http://lwn.net/Articles/200422/ ). I wonder if you'd find such unanimous adoration for the gplv3 process now.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 15:21 UTC (Sun) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] It's not like that at all. And FWIW, I'm not on any of the committees and I'm not privy to any private info from or about the committees.
Each committee decides how they want to work.
Committee D is the hackers+community committee, and they like transparency and inclusion. They decided that membership is open to everyone, which includes you. (Someone else on this page already mentioned that they joined that committee and got replies from Eben Moglen about some of their comments.)
Committees A to C are lawyers, corporations, and projects. They decided their discussions should be private. That's a good idea. While I'm disappointed that I won't get to hear what each person says, I know that they wouldn't say anything if their conversations were viewable to the public and the media - or worse, they'd lie for tactical/market reasons or use the forum as a PR tool.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 14:42 UTC (Sat) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] The kernel is a much larger body of text, and you mostly get some king of response even when you shoot your mouth off. And it is not that this isn't a higly specialized area of work, where the result has to be checked and refined by specialists, and where we have Our Great White Leader, who has claimed that his job is mostly saying "No". Why would something like this not work for creating a community-agreeable license?
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 27, 2007 22:21 UTC (Sat) by grouch (guest, #27289) [Link]
Law is not C code. I can fiddle around with the kernel, determine the value of the output within the time it takes to compile and boot, and nobody will get sued as a result. If I fiddle around with a software license, the output may not be noticed for years and could very well be the cause of severe hardship for lots of people. My opinion regarding some new patch in the kernel might be useful to the developers, if I can present some logical basis for my opinion or some real-world experience to back up that opinion. My opinion regarding whether or not the word "convey" needs to be in GPLv3 is of no importance to anyone, because I don't have a clue about the legal jurisdictions in which it holds significance. The effect of "return 1;" is not something that will change if you compile the kernel in the U.S. one day and Libya the next. Anyone might demonstrate the effects of changing such lines of code. The effects of using "convey" versus "propagate" versus "copy" are not so easily and universally demonstrated. Anyone can suggest an intended or hoped-for effect, but how to achieve that effect in a license is not something one can determine by reading a man page or some source code.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 0:22 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] Law is not C code. I can fiddle around with the kernel, determine the value of the output within the time it takes to compile and boot, and nobody will get sued as a result. If I fiddle around with a software license, the output may not be noticed for years and could very well be the cause of severe hardship for lots of people. Exactly the same could somebody who is a lawyer say about writing a kernel. Yes, both are complex, specialized endeavors. Yes, in both cases specialists most have the last word. But in both cases the end result will have to be agreeable to its users, be it software users or developers releasing code. If either group isn't happy, the code or the license will be moot. And I fear GPLv3 will be a complete non-starter, when it could have been a step forward.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 1:23 UTC (Sun) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] Exactly the same could somebody who is a lawyer say about writing a kernel. Yes, both are complex, specialized endeavors. Yes, in both cases specialists most have the last word. But in both cases the end result will have to be agreeable to its users, be it software users or developers releasing code. If either group isn't happy, the code or the license will be moot. And I fear GPLv3 will be a complete non-starter, when it could have been a step forward. Users and developers have had opportunities over and over again to join the process and make their voices heard, so no one has any excuse to complain about lack of opportunity to participate. Torvalds refused to participate because of his admitted dislike of committees. Should some special allowance have been made for him and the kernel guys? Do you realize how unfair that would look to other projects, several of which did participate in the process? Most GPLed software is licensed v2+, so I see no basis at all for your fear that v3 is a non-starter. You comment as if the kernel guys were somehow representative of GPL users in general, which is silly given how nearly all projects have nothing to do with Tivoization. Even the kernel guys are not as against v3 as you might think, with about 30% of the code currently licensed v2+.
Possible routes to kernel on GPLv3 Posted Jan 28, 2007 14:09 UTC (Sun) by grouch (guest, #27289) [Link]
Lawyers must be a different kind of animal where you live. If you ever get a lawyer who says he or she can quickly and precisely determine the effects of changing a few words in a legal document, run away! You can do such changes with software code and the results will be apparent when anyone, anywhere, properly compiles and tests that code. Judges, lawyers, courts and legislatures do not perform the same function as a compiler. The process used for drafting GPLv3 is unprecedented. I can find no instance of any other software license ever being created by soliciting feedback from the world.
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