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A cost analysis of Vista content protection
Peter Gutmann has posted a lengthy
look at the costs of the DRM features built into Windows Vista.
Reading it is a sort of Alice-in-Wonderland experience, highly recommended.
"If a graphics chip is integrated directly into the motherboard and
there's no easy access to the device bus then the need for bus encryption
is removed. Because the encryption requirement is so onerous, it's quite
possible that this means of providing graphics capabilities will suddenly
become more popular after the release of Vista. However, this leads to a
problem: It's no longer possible to tell if a graphics chip is situated on
a plug-in card or attached to the motherboard, since as far as the system
is concerned they're both just devices sitting on the AGP/PCIe bus. The
solution to this problem is to make the two deliberately incompatible, so
that HFS can detect a chip on a plug-in card vs. one on the
motherboard."
(Log in to post comments)
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 23, 2006 18:11 UTC (Sat) by azhrei_fje (guest, #26148) [Link] I read the article. It starts by saying that it won't discuss "political issues" (ie. DRM) but strictly hardware-related issues. Unfortunately, the author has an axe to grind, as becomes obvious early in the paper. While there are definitely some very insightful tidbits hidden in the article, the amount of rhetoric oftentimes overwhelms the senses. I give it one "thumbs up" because there is useful information enclosed, but one "thumbs down" due to the biased approach. Of course, you'll need to read it in order to draw your own conclusions.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 6:47 UTC (Sun) by jamienk (subscriber, #1144) [Link] I think that the issue dissected is so messed up that any sane analyst would reach similarly exasperated conclusions. Rather than being biased, I think the author does a good job pointing out the utter absurdity of the issue.
Well, you try it Posted Dec 24, 2006 11:03 UTC (Sun) by dion (subscriber, #2764) [Link] I think the problem is that writing neutrally about DRM is about as easy and makes as much sense as writing neutrally about drunk driving.
Sure, if you are a completely dispasinate automaton or alien then you might be able to write a very objective article about the economical impact of drunk driving, but just about anyone else is going to be biased because everybody is going to be hurt.
The DRM in Vista is going to be crap for everyone even people who don't use Vista, there is no reason to act as though it's just going to be a trip to happy fun land.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 18:17 UTC (Mon) by vmole (subscriber, #111) [Link] And what ax is he grinding? You accuse him of being biased, but don't specify how. The only "bias" I see in the article is the desire to be able to use video and sound hardware to its full capabilities without having it randomly disabled by Vista, buggy drivers, and sunspots. Or perhaps you see his opinion that maybe, just maybe, our hardware and software ought to serve us, rather than be slaved to the desires of "content providers" (of course, if you make your own content, that's not protected...) Peter Gutmann is a pretty smart guy, with a *lot* of experience with cryptology and various DRM systems (check some of the other papers on his site). I think he might be "biased" in favor of systems that stand a chance of working without being an unreasonable burden on implementors and users.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 27, 2006 1:36 UTC (Wed) by corey_s (guest, #12510) [Link] It is clear that the original poster's review of the article was biasedtowards his own interpretations of the author's alleged bias.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 23, 2006 18:18 UTC (Sat) by theraphim (subscriber, #25955) [Link] I think that for all readers of this article it is obvious that we have reached a key turning point in the whole industry development.
Either hardware manufacturers will follow Microsoft and their way, thus cutting down all, any and every alternate way of using their hardware (including, but not limited to, open source operating systems), or they will ignore it (at least partially), rendering all Microsoft so-called "R&D" on this topic useless.
This situation also can be resolved in such way that we'll have 2 hardware designs - Microsoft (which is suitable for Microsoft) and Personal (to run software that works in the way users want it to).
Will hardware manufacturers consider Linux "strong" enough? Do they believe that producing open design will bring them the same sales than producing Vista-compatible stuff?
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 12:18 UTC (Sun) by ottavio (guest, #42268) [Link] We can still have our voice heard by recommnding not to but PC's with Vista preinstalled:http://www.pledgebank.com/boycottvista
abut the pledge Posted Dec 27, 2006 7:47 UTC (Wed) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] Hmm, I'm not sure I can sign your pledge, which says "I will not purchase any computing equipment from manufactures that recommend Windows Vista™ or any other Microsoft® products but only if 100,000 potential computer buyers around the world will too."As it happens, I already try not to buy from manufactures that recommend Windows Vista, whether or not 100 000 other people do likewise. What's the point of the "but only if ... " clause?
abut the pledge Posted Dec 29, 2006 18:18 UTC (Fri) by Baylink (subscriber, #755) [Link] I think the idea of that was that they were aping the [[Free State Project]] people: I promise to move to New Hampshire if 5000 other people promise, too.
about the pledge Posted Jan 5, 2007 17:04 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link] I think the idea of that was that they were aping the [[Free State Project]] people: I promise to move to New Hampshire if 5000 other people promise, too. Not aping it, just using the same generic concept. Another example is the movement in the US to elect the President by popular vote instead of by state vote, by agreement among the states. Each state agrees to give up its vote for President (i.e. to cast it according to the popular vote), but only if nearly all the other states agree as well. Or a stock sale where the deal is off unless a total of N shares are sold. What makes the "100,000 other people" part important is that not everyone is willing to give up the benefits of using MS software just out of righteousness. But some would be willing to give them up in return for the damage that a 100,000-person boycott would do to MS. I myself never do something individually just because it would be good if everyone did it. Marginal cost/marginal utility was a powerful lesson for me in economics class.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 23, 2006 21:21 UTC (Sat) by lutchann (subscriber, #8872) [Link] It does seem necessary to take this paper with a grain of salt. Even the author admits that it's not possible for most readers to verify many of the assertions he makes about Microsoft's content protection requirements, and taking into account some of his leaps of logic (for example, the absurd assumption that adding a high-speed AES engine to a graphics card would require the removal of "a rendering pipeline or two"), I wouldn't take his predictions too seriously.
Frankly, I'm having a hard time getting worked up over this whole issue. As many other people have suggested, if you want a DVD player, buy a DVD player, not a PC. If you have a moral problem with DRM, don't watch DVDs.
I don't see this affecting Linux users much at all. Sure, these DRM requirements will have some not-insignificant effect on hardware prices for the next year or two, but I doubt it will be particularly notable looking at long-term trends. And honestly, I'm looking forward to having another reason to tell people not to run Windows.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 23, 2006 22:03 UTC (Sat) by bk (guest, #25617) [Link] "If you have a problem with air pollution, stop breathing!"
"If you have a problem with government oppression, move somewhere else!"
"If you don't like Windows, don't use a computer!"
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 11:17 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Plus DVDs on DVD players just suck. :-)
I was watching movies at my parents house and I was amazed to see that I couldn't just skip through the advertisements at the beginning and the FBI warning and other assorted nonsense. It'd pop up a warning that said something along the lines of 'Disk forbids this function at this time'.
I had forgotten that stuff existed because I am used to just using Xine or mplayer to watch DVDs.
Who do you want your hardware to serve? You or a movie studio?
It's amazing that now I have to break federal law just to skip advertisements. Pretty soon I'll start hearing that I am not allowed to buy certain types of fatty fried foods? (oh wait...)
When will it end? This whole erosion of liberty thing is realy realy starting to piss me off.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection (just a bit off topic) Posted Dec 24, 2006 18:17 UTC (Sun) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link] " ... Pretty soon I'll start hearing that I am not allowed to buy certain types of fatty fried foods? (oh wait...)"
You might think this as humorous, but how well informed of the trans fat content of the food you consume? Were you aware that they were an inadvertant result of trying to lower arterial disease? Are you aware they are at least as dangerous (or more) as the food component they were meant to replace? I would guess not*. Recognize too the trans fat content is to the advantage of the producer/seller not the consumer. It is cheaper and more stable; as to having a taste advantage - there is none.
Are you against the "War Against Drugs"? I personally am in favor of giving the confiscated drugs away to confirmed addicts on the condition they they not pursue criminal activities. In addition, I would stress helping those kick the habit if they were motivated to try. Last I would place the lowest priority upon street level enforcement. The goal is to reduce the demand side and the profit margins so the business is less enticing to all concerned.
If you choose to knowingly kill yourself - fine with me, but I want you off any health insurance reimbursement system. Eat all the trans fats and consume all the addictive drugs you please - try tobacco. But don't cry later.
For me, I just do not like DRM equipped hardware being forced upon me when I play very little video or audio on my machines.
* I am painfully aware, because I happened to work on a multi-department, multi-university project meant to attack heart and arterial disease where the solution was as bad culprit: butter fat. Later instinctively I kept my butter fat intake low, but preferred it to margarine.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection (just a bit off topic) Posted Dec 25, 2006 8:04 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] ""You might think this as humorous, but how well informed of the trans fat content of the food you consume? Were you aware that they were an inadvertant result of trying to lower arterial disease? Are you aware they are at least as dangerous (or more) as the food component they were meant to replace? I would guess not*. Recognize too the trans fat content is to the advantage of the producer/seller not the consumer. It is cheaper and more stable; as to having a taste advantage - there is none.""
No it's not fucking humorous. This thinking is the one of the most unfunny things I have ever heard in my entire life.
It's showing how absurd this thinking goes. If you don't want to eat transfat then DON'T. Nobody is going to force you, nobody gives a shit one way or another. It's MY LIFE. Not yours, not the government's, not anybody elses and Dammit, if I want KFC I want KFC.
Screw the a-holes trying to control every freaking aspect of our lives because they feel justified because they assume that everybody else is a completely and total fucking moron. People need to worry a hell of a lot about their own lives before they go around trying to control how other people live theirs.
""If you choose to knowingly kill yourself - fine with me, but I want you off any health insurance reimbursement system. Eat all the trans fats and consume all the addictive drugs you please - try tobacco. But don't cry later.""
Fuck that. This sort of thing REALY pisses me off. I WORK for a living. I make a valueable contribution to sociaty and I get compinsated. I use the money I earn to buy health insurance.
Are you saying that since a person does not follow your nutrional rules that they are less relevent and should be less able to get medical help?
Seems a bit fascist to me.
I am a grown person, work for a living, and it's not anybody else's business. It's NOT ANY OF YOUR BUSINESS.
SEROUSLY. Just because you want to be a cheap bastard doesn't mean that it gives you a right to control other people's lives. And you know what? You get rid of transfat it's not going to make anybody healthy, it's not going to make your insurance cheaper. It's NOT GOING TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.
A fat bastard will just continue on being a fat bastard. They will get sick and die, and you know what? Nothing you will do will ever change anything. One way or another they are just going to find another way to kill themselves off slowly.
Do you comprehend how fucked up this whole thing is? The VERY IDEA of this whole thing is so completely counter to the idea of a free country.
Why not just pass a law saying that unless people walk a mile everyday they are going to get fined?
Why not just pass a law saying that a person has to eat a balanced diet and that stores are not allowed to sell people certain combinations of food?
Why not make it illegal to buy too much pork?
Here.. This is a great idea..
Why not use RATIONS to determine what food stores are allowed to sell to me. It would be brilliant idea!!!
That way people will be FORCED to only buy the correct balance of fruits and vegetables.
This is the way your going. It's just so completely asinine. Words just fail me. I am just failing to come up with polite words to express how completely and utterly how wrong this line of thinking is.
""* I am painfully aware, because I happened to work on a multi-department, multi-university project meant to attack heart and arterial disease where the solution was as bad culprit: butter fat. Later instinctively I kept my butter fat intake low, but preferred it to margarine."""
That's why it should be illegal to sell butter, right?
A cost analysis of Vista content protection (just a bit off topic) Posted Dec 25, 2006 10:03 UTC (Mon) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] >> ""If you choose to knowingly kill yourself - fine with me, but I want>> you off any health insurance reimbursement system. Eat all the trans >> fats and consume all the addictive drugs you please - try tobacco. But >> don't cry later."" > Fuck that. This sort of thing REALY pisses me off. I WORK for a living. > I make a valueable contribution to sociaty and I get compinsated. I use > the money I earn to buy health insurance.
I think the question here is (and I would like that you respond it with a
> I am a grown person, work for a living, and it's not anybody else's
The problem is: it IS my business if you are spending MY money on your
A cost analysis of Vista content protection (just a bit off topic) Posted Dec 25, 2006 14:03 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] There is absolutely no reason why your insurance should be the same as mine.
Why do you think it is? I realy realy doubt you pay the same as I do.
Go and find some insurance place that does physicals if you don't want to share your cost with unhealthy people.
""The problem is: it IS my business if you are spending MY money on your
It isn't your money.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection (just a bit off topic) Posted Dec 26, 2006 13:02 UTC (Tue) by irios (guest, #19838) [Link] I want your genome scanned for genetic imperfections which might cost other innocents a lot of money later.
Your attitude is so selfish, self-righteous, self-indulging, self-serving, and myopic that you deserve no answers at all. And all because one day you read an article about fat, and now you feel enlightened, and entitled to impose your supposedly informed opinions on others.
That attitude is why you have to pay an arm and a leg for a shitty health insurance, or else you may die sitting at the door of a hospital for all they care, while everybody in my much poorer country is protected by universal health coverage.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection (just a bit off topic) Posted Dec 25, 2006 22:20 UTC (Mon) by bk (guest, #25617) [Link] That's a common reaction from people who a) don't really understand what trans fats are, and b) don't really understand the details of the 'ban'.
Banning trans fats will have absolutely zero effect on your ability to eat unhealthily if you so desire. You can be obese/overweight (and develop all the related health complications) to your heart's content. Restaurants will still have the option of frying everything in lard, butter, coconut oil and just about anything else.
What the ban *does* do is prevent establishments (almost entirely national fast-food franchises) from making the economic decision to use products that are cheaper but endanger the health of consumers. Trans fats are artificial (ie, they don't exist in nature) chemicals resulting from the hydrogenation of vegetable oil. Such restaurants can continue to use slightly more expensive products (such as lard) that are still quite unhealthy (don't worry, the 'health nut' agenda won't be forced on you) but don't have the overwhelmingly toxic effects of trans fats.
It also doesn't prevent you from going to a store and buying hydrogenated oils and using them at home. Of course there's no rational reason to do this (other than perhaps saving a penny or two by using Crisco instead of butter or animal fat) but it's still your option.
Nothing you will do will ever change anything. Posted Jan 4, 2007 6:01 UTC (Thu) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] > Nothing you will do will ever change anything.
Right.
No public health program has ever changed anything.
> One way or another they are just going to find another way to
And, of course, every time anyone ever gets sick it is entirely
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 2:38 UTC (Mon) by jamienk (subscriber, #1144) [Link] Pretty soon I'll start hearing that I am not allowed to buy certain types of fatty fried foods? (oh wait...)The one government regulation is the result of monopolists pretty much paying to have intricate, draconian, and weird laws passed to protect their business models, enforce their monopolies, and all but guarantee them more income than the amounts they paid for the laws. The other government regulation is the result of nutritionists fighting to stop machine-made poisons from being sold as foods. You might argue some libertarian-esque line that "all government regulation is bad" but I think such an argument is overkill here. We can all agree that the former "regulation" should be fought against before we even begin to debate the terms of the second issue.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 8:10 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] ""The one government regulation is the result of monopolists pretty much paying to have intricate, draconian, and weird laws passed to protect their business models, enforce their monopolies, and all but guarantee them more income than the amounts they paid for the laws.
The other government regulation is the result of nutritionists fighting to stop machine-made poisons from being sold as foods.""
BOTH ARE JUST AS BAD.
Seriously. You don't know were this is leading do you?
Just stop and pause.. Stop assuming that eveybody else is a moron and knows nothing about nuturion and they need to be protected from 'big transfat' and realise the implications of a government controlling foods becuase they do not approve of the nutrional content.
Oh sure,your freedom is sooo important when it comes to being able to copy files, but on the other hand it's completely irrelevent when it comes to how you run a business.
Do you not see the irony? Which freedom do you think is more important?
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Jan 4, 2007 6:33 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link] > Stop assuming that eveybody else is a moron and knows nothing about nuturion and they need to be protected from 'big transfat' and realise the implications of a government controlling foods becuase they do not approve of the nutrional content.
So presumably adding sand, heroin, arsenic or polonium-210 to foodstuffs and not telling your customers that you've done so should also be perfectly legal, if that's what the consumer is willing to tolerate when spending their dollars?
I'm as individualist as they come, but sadly the consumer who makes a rational decision based on complete and correct information at all times is about as likely to be spotted in the wild as the Loch Ness Monster. Especially when consumers are increasingly required to distinguish between conflicting authoritative claims... if even experts cannot reach consensus, how on earth is the average consumer supposed to choose? In such a situation the only sensible choice is not to consume unless you know and trust the production. (For example, only eating what you grow, catch or hunt yourself.)
I'm scarcely the first person to moot this, and I wish I were so much better at acting on it, but: Self-sufficiency is a prerequisite for functional liberty. If you don't have the freedom to refuse all choices and go your own way, you have no freedom at all - and the freedom is pointless without the ability.
(Having said which, I think banning advertising in all forms would accomplish a HELL of a lot more for people's health, not to mention their sanity, than banning particular "bad" substances. After all, advertising is basically systematic manipulation - brainwashing, frankly - and every bit as coercive as the use of force. We live in a world where people taste a beer differently depending on what they believe its brand name to be... advertisers take full advantage of the chasm between how much we *do* trust our senses and our judgement, and how much we *should*.)
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Jan 4, 2007 6:41 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link] > not telling your customers that you've done so
...should read "not making any particular effort to let your customers know that you've done so, on the grounds that if they care enough to want to know they'll ask"
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 11:32 UTC (Mon) by dion (subscriber, #2764) [Link] I'm with you on the DRM bit, there is no reason for the government to protect the copyright holders over customers, however, that has no parallels to the government protecting you from harmful crap in your food.
Transfats are an artificial and bad type of fat and there are other, less damaging types of fat that can be used in stead.
There is no way for the customer to see if the fat used is one of the evil kinds and maybe the kitchen staff have no idea either.
I think it makes perfect sense to simply outlaw the transfats, escpecially when there are perfectly fine alternatives and when it's very hard for most people to tell the difference.
Your liberty is not being eroded by when the government makes it illegal for companies to poison your for profit.
I think your problem is that you live in a country so corrupt and democracy-deficiant that you have come to assume that all government involvement is bad, when at times it can be absolutely cool.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 14:23 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Transfat != poison.
It's stabilised vegitable oil. The proccess that produces this causes certain types of fatty acids that make your LDS cholesterol raise more rapidly then some other types of common fat.
Since highten LDS cholesterol is associated with greater risk of heart disease then people assume that transfat causes heart disease... which isn't even nessicarially true.
All this 'poison' stuff is realy irritating. It should sound very familar:
There is no adverse effects from transfat in moderation. If you eat nothing but fast food then your health is going to go to shit, which is the whole target of this. Fast foods places use a lot of transfat, but you can't pass a law based on targetting specific types of businesses like that.. you wouldn't get away with it they'd lobby against you and stop it.
But you can't lobby against stopping 'man made poison'. It's the social engineers people trying to get people to eat less fast food.
I don't have a problem with that, but it should be taken care of through public education rather then subverting government to your own ends.
Banning isn't going to realy do anything. Fatty fast foods are still going to be just as unhealthy if they use other types of fat. It's just not a balanced diet. People are still going to become fat asses, not eat properly, and get no excerise weither or not their food uses one type of fat or another.
If you don't want to use cisco, then don't. Your better off without it.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 14:24 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] oops. Crisco, not cisco.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Jan 4, 2007 6:35 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link] Although... ;)
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 19:15 UTC (Mon) by dion (subscriber, #2764) [Link] As far as I can tell trans fats are worse for your health than the alternatives and the alternatives are not expensive or rare, so what's the argument for using trans fats?
Nobody is trying to outlaw shitty KFC type food, or McD, it's a relatively simple case of forcing the industry to use a less harmful ingredient.
... but this is entrirely off topic, my point was that some times it makes perfect sense to outlaw something for the good of the people and that the customers are actually better off because of it.
Take a hypotetical example, let's say cigarrets contain additives that only serve to make the victims addicted, would forcing the industry to stop adding that crap really infringe on anybodys freedom?
To get all of this a bit back on topic: I'd be all for making copyright a two-way trade, either the copyrightholder respects fair use and allows it or he gets no copyright protection at all.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 28, 2006 15:41 UTC (Thu) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] There went five minutes I'll never get back... :-|
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Jan 5, 2007 18:27 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link] It's really self-centered to look at content protection as erosion of liberty. It's just a shift of liberty, that happens to be away from you. DRM schemes enhance the liberty of a movie maker to put DVDs in millions of homes, usable in a variety of ways, without unwanted copying happening.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 1:47 UTC (Sun) by tetromino (subscriber, #33846) [Link] > I don't see this affecting Linux users much at all.
Vista requires mid- to high-end sound and video devices (anything that needs to handle "protected content" without degradation) to be hardware-fingerprinted. Device manufacturers are contractually obligated to not disclose any information that might be used to work around the fingerprinting process. You can bet that the corporate legal folks will interpret that as "do not tell anything helpful to Linux driver writers".
In other words, when Vista becomes popular, open-source sound and video drivers will become an endangered species.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 3:13 UTC (Sun) by lutchann (subscriber, #8872) [Link] I guess I just don't see how "when Vista becomes popular, open-source sound and video drivers will become an endangered species" logically follows from "device manufacturers are contractually obligated to not disclose any information that might be used to work around the fingerprinting process" even assuming the latter statement is true. Just because the hardware manufacturer is obligated to provide some sort of secret authentication or handshaking type of functionality doesn't have anything to do with whether the manufacturer can provide programming information for the device to allow a full-featured open driver to be written.
Hardware manufacturers are either interested in supporting Linux or they're not. Those that are not might hide behind the Vista requirements as yet another excuse for not providing open drivers/specs, but I have yet to see any sensible reasoning to justify the assertion that these requirements are going to prevent Linux-supporting hardware companies from being able to do so in the future.
If somebody can provide a more concrete explanation as to how Microsoft is contractually preventing hardware manufacturers from opening their specifications, I'd certainly be interested to know, but the HFS accusation as it's written in this paper doesn't make sense.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 6:22 UTC (Sun) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
Monopoly power is a funny thing. If unchecked, it can be leveraged from the market in which the monopoly is attained to intrude into, and take over, other market segments. When a single company controls enough of a market to wield monopoly power, all others must conform to the constraints it imposes on that market or they are left to try to survive in the left-overs. Microsoft has long used its power in the PC software market to control the PC hardware market. This is why we have such bizarre things as an 'on-off' switch which does not act like the 'on-off' switch on, for example, a lamp. (How long do you hold a lamp switch in the off position before the light goes off? Is it still drawing power after it's off?) Try doing a search for "PC System Design Guide", with or without the quotes, and see what turns up. Try it for PC95 design guide, or PC97 hardware design guide, or PC98 system design guide, or PC99 system design guide, or PC2000 system design guide, or PC2001 system design guide. Hardware manufacturers must design for inclusion in the monopoly or try to recoup their design and manufacturing costs by selling to the left-overs outside the MS Windows / PC market. How many can afford to reduce their market share by 80% - 90%? Microsoft software ships pre-installed on most computers available in brick-and-mortar stores and on most computers available by mail order or by way of the Internet. With the OEM market in hand, Microsoft can dictate hardware design. Hardware manufacturers would need to take a bold gamble that MS Vista will not retain monopoly status in order for them to reject design criteria dictated by Microsoft.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 17:53 UTC (Sun) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] > This is why we have such bizarre things as an 'on-off' switch which does not act like the 'on-off' switch on, for example, a lamp. (How long do you hold a lamp switch in the off position before the light goes off? Is it still drawing power after it's off?)
When was the last time you lost a file on your lamp due to unclean shutdown?
Also, it's not exactly unheard of for other equipment to have complicated on/off behavior. For example, my deisel truck needs to heat its glow plugs so has a two step process to turn it on. The space shuttle needs over an hour after landing to be safed and shut off. Nor is it unheard of for equipment unaffiliated with microsoft to draw power while "off", for example, my cordless phone here does. So do most televisions. Laying computer power switch behavior at the feet of microsoft's monopoly is an interesting assertian, I'd be intruiged to see some quotes justifying it.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 19:04 UTC (Sun) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
See the PC97 design guide, or, if you prefer not to access microsoft.com:
The start procedure you reference for a diesel engine is dictated by the way a diesel engine works. Likewise for the space shuttle. A PC does not require a complex power-off procedure. A power switch shielded from accidental tripping would be sufficient. Uninterruptible power supplies are the best answer to the problem of losing files due to disorderly shutdowns. The "instant on" provision is a convenience for many people. I don't think it adds enough convenience for the aggravation and it is certainly not dictated by the way a PC works. It comes, instead, from Microsoft, just as the extra keys with a MS Windows logo was dictated to the keyboard industry by Microsoft.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 22:46 UTC (Sun) by aya (guest, #19767) [Link] > A power switch shielded from accidental tripping would be sufficient.
It would also need a big red sign next to it telling users not to press it until they had selected "shut down" from the Start Menu (which, by the way, they wouldn't read); alternatively, it couldn't actually shut the computer down immediately, at which point we're back to today's status quo. What you say is true, *if* all computer users were computer-savvy, which is obviously not the case. Most people won't understand without a lot of explaining that their important document didn't actually go to disk as soon as they hit "save", and most people won't really care, either.
Now, that being said, I do feel a bit skittish about Microsoft's potential control over hardware design, but this particular example isn't terribly insidious.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 0:57 UTC (Mon) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
What's a "Start Menu" and what does it have to do with turning a computer off?
There are people who will use a fork to try to remove a screw and end up with a ruined fork and a ruined screw. Maybe there should be some mandated design guide for forks to make them not fit screw heads.
Where do you get this "potential" qualifier? The potential was fulfilled more than 10 years ago. MS Vista is simply extending the remote control.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 6:49 UTC (Sun) by dang (subscriber, #310) [Link] Based just on the snippets below, it looks like M$'s requirements put the gun right to the device manufacturers' heads. If you want to vend your wares to the huge M$ installation base, then it will be really, really hard to do so in a way that allows you to support open source platforms.
---snippets below----
"In order for this to work, the spec requires that the operational details of
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"Once a weakness is found in a particular driver or device, that driver will
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A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 12:26 UTC (Sun) by rwmj (subscriber, #5474) [Link] Personally, I'm looking forward to the day when Microsoft "revokes" some popular piece ofhardware.
Rich.
driver revocation Posted Jan 4, 2007 6:11 UTC (Thu) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] I wonder how easily forgeable a revocation is?
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 12:58 UTC (Sun) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link] But this is just security through obscurity, and I don't believe it is necessary with good crypto. GnuPG is open source and secure, the strength is in the algorithms and key management. So if the driver has the public key for the card and the card signs a message with its private key then the driver can be sure the message came from the card and hasn't been tampered with. I suspect the problem is more likely to be with the identification of registers and other hardware controlling bits - there is a precedent for having a binary only module for this in the Intel open source graphics drivers, as Keith Packard put it: This module contains stuff which Intel can't publish in source form, like Macrovision register stuff and other trade secrets. It's optional, so if you don't want to use a binary module, you don't get to use code written by Intel agents for these features. To me this seems like an excellent compromise, the module is optional and you can still use your hardware quite happily.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 1:20 UTC (Mon) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
Please let everyone know how Microsoft receives your proposed compromise.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 2:16 UTC (Mon) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link] Hmm, I'd missed the comment that the *spec* requires the details to be kept confidential. So effectively Microsoft is using this as an excuse to compel hardware manufacturers to not publish specs, with the effect of hamstringing open source driver development. Of course they'll protest that it's not their fault but it certainly fits with past practices from Redmond. :-( Without a copy of the spec it's hard to say how much is direct quotation and how much is inference..
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 12:57 UTC (Mon) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link] Problem is that any key on the PC, wherever it's hidden (driver or kernel) can be quite easily found and modified. I don't see how they can avoid a man in the middle attack with those public/private keys stored in software, not even with TMP hardware.
But for open source it's even easier, as most protection is in place to verify DRM hardware. The hardware can't verify the driver as any private keys need to be in the driver and thus can be recovered. As we only want a functional driver and aren't trying to bypass the DRM, it's probably even legal.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 26, 2006 4:39 UTC (Tue) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link] Ah, but the private key(s) only needs to be in the hardware with itscorresponding public key(s) in the driver. Of course there can be hardware attacks against the hardware based private key as well, but that's going to push up the cost of an attack quite dramatically compared to a software only attack.
This of course assumes that the report about the spec is accurate in that
Attacking the driver to modify its public key will only result in
Regarding FLOSS drivers, it would mean that those drivers would have to
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 26, 2006 13:32 UTC (Tue) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link] True, but in that case it's the driver checking the hardware, and as we want to replace the driver it's quite easy, as there's nothing stopping us, except some obfuscated binary code.
But if we can so easily replace the MSWindows driver with a Linux one (concerning DRM "protection"), then what would stop people bypassing the DRM from the software side? Nice expensive hardware all for nothing because the software can't keep any key secret... (Even the key on the hardware isn't safe if they aren't very careful.)
Only way to fix the above problem is to pass encrypted data to the hardware with the software not knowing the keys, which is what happens I think. But I don't believe that all those hardware companies and content industry can keep their keys secret. If this is the case, then there's no need at all to be secret about interfaces and drivers information, as all decryption is done by hardware.
Considering the draconian regulations it means they went for a half assed solution which can be broken, and thus will be broken. If the hardware really did all the verification then things would be very simple for the driver, as the only thing that changes would be that the hardware is more expensive and has an extra feature.
Maybe it is a sneaky way to try killing FOSS after all...
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 27, 2006 23:52 UTC (Wed) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link] My understanding was that the stated aim of the exercise is to stopsomeone writing software that poses as video hardware to an existing driver because the hardware & driver do a DH key exchange and the driver encrypts the "premium" content with the exchanged keys.
Thus if your software was able to masquerade as a plug in video card and
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 28, 2006 15:33 UTC (Thu) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link] Diffie-Hellman doesn't protect against man-in-the-middle attacks, so some form of authentication would be still needed. And for that there needs to be keys both in hardware and the driver.
The key in the driver could be replaced with any key the attacker wants, and then the authentication would seem to succeed and unencrypted content would be received by the fake videocard. I don't believe they're so stupid to bet on this...
But maybe they do, as it appears that the driver needs to do checks, and checks can be bypassed, so what the hell are they thinking? If the driver needs to do any checks then the system is broken by design.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Jan 23, 2007 10:43 UTC (Tue) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link] It seems they were indeed so stupid as this, both Blueray and HD-DVD are cracked because the encryption keys can be fished out of ram. Pathetic.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 27, 2006 20:09 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] One thing that seems to be missing in all this discussion of how to break this scheme is that in the largest market for PCs (the US), reverse-engineering or 'breaking' it will be completely illegal and very prosecutable, thanks to the DMCA. This will have a significant damper on legitimate free drivers, to say the least.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 27, 2006 23:53 UTC (Wed) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link] Amen.
Very handy for the agendas of both "content" providers and Microsoft.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 30, 2006 16:14 UTC (Sat) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link] Well, breaking content protection may be illegal, but making a free driver that also honours the DRM surely isn't illegal?
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 1:45 UTC (Mon) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link] Very simple.
Microsoft will end up writing most of the video drivers for the card
Already the closed video drivers available for X have microsoft code in
The spec is very complex, and most of the function is system level as
If it isn't the case now, it will as Nvidea and ATI have trouble
And since MS will own the code, which IS the spec for the hardware, how
My opinion is that this will be an utter failure for everyone involved.
Derek
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 24, 2006 13:11 UTC (Sun) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link] It's worth remembering that Peter is a well known crypto geek and was one of the contributors of source code to Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography". He has his 800 slide godzilla crypto tutorial online at his University of Auckland pages. He's likely to have a reasonable understanding of the crypto implications and burders of this specification.
still fixing xbox Posted Dec 24, 2006 18:06 UTC (Sun) by ccyoung (subscriber, #16340) [Link] much of this seems in response to the xbox hack.
what? Posted Dec 25, 2006 1:16 UTC (Mon) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
That would be really interesting, if not for reality getting in the way. You see the xbox wasn't even released until the end of 2001 but Microsoft was granted a patent on a "Secure PC" about the same time. So whatever "xbox hack" you're talking about would need to have happened before the xbox was released and before the patent application process began, in order for Microsoft's implementation of the DRMOS, as represented by Vista, and the design criteria for the hardware necessary for that implementation, as represented by the issues described in Peter Gutmann's analysis article, to be "in response to" that "hack".
referencing Posted Dec 25, 2006 17:36 UTC (Mon) by ccyoung (subscriber, #16340) [Link] I thought MS was significantly embarrassed by how easily the xbox was being hacked. The specs here, in large part, seem addressed at closing down those very hacks.
It could well be that they knew the xbox would be hacked and released it anyway.
facts and history are irrelevant Posted Dec 26, 2006 1:11 UTC (Tue) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
Yeah, wonderful theory -- specs for PC hardware that can be trusted by "premium content providers", to implement a "Secure PC" patented 5 years ago, are addressed at closing down a game box "hack". I wonder how Mr. Gutmann missed such an obvious relationship and wasted all that writing about Vista.
Jeremy Allison is a retard Posted Dec 24, 2006 21:21 UTC (Sun) by genius (guest, #19981) [Link] Microsoft is helping Novell by creating healthy competition to RedHat. There's a lot of dough at stake. Does he want Novell to eat grass? Novell can't make money by selling free Samba. And he himself went to Google for THE big dough. He maybe a talented hacker, but at the end of the day, he's still a RETARD.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 25, 2006 2:11 UTC (Mon) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] This is the central reason I don't worry about binary drivers for Linux in the short term.
It was obvious several years back what Microsoft was trying to do with the "innovations" in Vista. Which is why Linux needs to make significant inroads on the desktop ASAP. If it doesn't then the game is pretty much over, at least on the desktop. Best case will be very broken and limited drivers for video and audio. Worst case will be no drivers at all. And things could easily progress from there to threaten the server market as well.
OT Posted Dec 25, 2006 4:02 UTC (Mon) by robert_s (guest, #42402) [Link] This is going to be very ironic coming from a non-subscribed poster.
Judging from the comments here should lwn perhaps rethink allowing guests to post? Restricting commenting to subscribers could probably cause Microsoft marketing department to fund the whole of lwn through subscriptions for their bogus posters. And the comment quality would skyrocket.
OT Posted Dec 25, 2006 23:16 UTC (Mon) by pheldens (guest, #19366) [Link] If there's something ms has no lack of, it's money to buy an lwn membership.
OT Posted Dec 26, 2006 14:51 UTC (Tue) by ddaa (subscriber, #5338) [Link] (Wildly offtopic, but I'm on vacation and slightly bored.)
I would rather have MS spend money on LWN subscriptions than, say, on patent royalties to Novell or back-handed funding of SCO.
Not that there is any logical link between the two, but this whole thread is pointless anyway.
A cost analysis of Vista content protection Posted Dec 26, 2006 20:40 UTC (Tue) by rahvin (subscriber, #16953) [Link] Microsoft needs to be careful implementing this with the hardware manufacturers. If they are restricting the creation of Open source drivers there is an anti-trust violation.
Remember, Microsoft has already been proved to be a monopoly so no one has to try to prove that, all they need to prove is that Microsoft is using their monopoly to restrict the open market (and what else does DRM and safePC do other than restrict market access?). Heck Redhat could open a lawsuit and net millions (to spend on open source) simply by claiming Microsoft is trying to squeeze them out of the market completely by eliminating their ability to have manufacturer assisted open source drivers. Not to mention what the Europeans will do to them.
I've said it before, DRM is extremely dangerous to companies as it will be seen as monopoly tactics. Apple's at risk with their DRM as well. Even if the content providers want DRM now, some are starting to realize the implications as Apple is now in the position to dictate electronic music pricing. Which is exactly the position Microsoft will be in if they control the distribution method via their DRM on the Window's Monopoly. The content providers like the idea of DRM but once implemented they won't like that it creates monopolies that can then dictate the pricing back to them.
Microsoft's a monopoly... Who cares? The DOJ obviously doesn't Posted Dec 28, 2006 13:56 UTC (Thu) by pr1268 (subscriber, #24648) [Link] The title I used above is sarcasm meant to convey my disgust with Microsoft. Yes, it has been proven to be a monopoly. Yes, there was a US Department of Justice (DOJ) lawsuit brought against MS for violating the Sherman Act (and/or related legislation). In fact, wasn't there another lawsuit against MS and their monopoly back in the mid-1990s? But, this hasn't stopped Microsoft. MS is still a large company which bullies PC manufacturers, retailers, and consumers into using its prorietary software and nothing else (plus the Draconian DRM measures Dr. Gutmann mentions in his article). But, one (two?) DOJ lawsuit(s) later, and Microsoft is no worse for the wear. Why is this? How can the DOJ successfully break up monopolies such as Standard Oil (which the Sherman Act aimed to address in 1890), The American Tobacco Company (1911), and "Ma Bell" (AT&T, 1982), yet fail to break up Microsoft? Granted, the American Tobacco Company breakup took 4 years (link), and the AT&T breakup took 8 years (link). My guess is that the DOJ fights the battles it knows it can win, and it doesn't think it can take on Microsoft. Forgive me for getting totally far-fetched, but does anyone else here think that Microsoft's FUD has oozed into every nook and cranny of the US Government so as to cause the DOJ to pull the wool over its eyes while MS gets away with this monopoly? I'm a staunch proponent of consumer choice, but I don't feel that average consumers really have a choice with PC operating systems. It's a crying shame that the US government fails to recognize this.
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