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Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch)
Linux-Watch looks at
delays in the Debian Etch release. "Debian GNU/Linux 4.0,
codenamed Etch, had been due to arrive by December 4, 2006, but it's been
delayed because some developers have deliberately slowed down their
work."
(Log in to post comments)
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 18:50 UTC (Mon) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] Seems like the developers who did not go with the majority opinion need to be removed from the project. That won't solve anything in the short term, but moving forward it might.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 20:37 UTC (Mon) by jmorris42 (subscriber, #2203) [Link] > Seems like the developers who did not go with the majority opinion need> to be removed from the project.
I wouldn't call for removing anyone willing to contribute to a volunteer project. However I would recommend that the disgruntled ones be removed from positions of responsibility because their actions speak in fifty foot flaming letters that they aren't responsible people.
They are participating in a project that has established procedures to resolve disputes, namely open dialog and argument followed up with elections. Elections have consequences for Debian just like they do in the 'real world' and if they aren't willing to be bound by the outcome of an election they aren't ready to participate in adult affairs.
Then we get to the silliness of the issue that has them all worked up as exhibit two why they aren't the sort of reliable and stable folk you want in critical positions. Debian devels have worked for pay in the past, are doing it now and will hopefully continue doing so long into the future. This is a good thing.
Yes there is a possibility that some nefarious monied interest could demand their paid people to do bad things. Worry about that if it ever actually happens. Besides, unpaid assholes can also cause no end of problems in a Free Software project, certain people might want to look in a mirror to see an example.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 0:53 UTC (Wed) by linuxrocks123 (guest, #34648) [Link] > They are participating in a project that has established procedures to resolve disputes, namely open dialog and argument followed up with elections. Elections have consequences for Debian just like they do in the 'real world' and if they aren't willing to be bound by the outcome of an election they aren't ready to participate in adult affairs.
How neurotic of you. These people are volunteers. If they don't like the result of a decision they're perfectly free to spend their time elsewhere. It has nothing to do with "adulthood". In fact, "willingness to be bound by the outcome of an election" has nothing to do with adulthood either. Kookish Libertarian redefinitions of words aren't going to fool anyone here. Go to Slashdot.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 4:42 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link] as someone who has spent MANY hours doing volunteer work I have this to say in response
if you volunteer to do a job you should do the job. you are free to volunteer to quit and stop doing the job (letting someone else step in their place)
keeping the title while not doing the job is just blocking things from getting done.
it's noted elsewhere in this thread that the developers are not deliberatly delaying the release, but if they were the fact that they are volunteers does not make it any better.
another way to put it (as I was told long ago), this is a volunteer job, when it stops being fun and you loose interest in it, do yourself and everyone else a favor and just step down. if you force yourself to do it you won't do as good a job, you won't enjoy it, and you will drive things into the ground. if you step down someone else can step in, you can get a break, and once you are interested again you can get involved again.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 11:53 UTC (Wed) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link] > How neurotic of you. These people are volunteers. If they don't like the result of a decision they're perfectly free to spend their time elsewhere.
I think his point was that they *aren't* spending their time elsewhere: they're sticking about, remaining disgruntled and being obstructive and demoralising to other people.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 21, 2006 18:40 UTC (Thu) by lysse (subscriber, #3190) [Link] Hmm. I'd say a subscriber is rather more qualified than a guest to pass verdict on what "belongs" at LWN. Please feel free to put your mouth where your money is.
"These people" may be volunteers, but so is everyone involved with the Debian process, and any collaboration of people is free to cease collaboration with those members who are no longer acting in good faith. Consider someone who decides to march a blind person across to the other side of the road without stopping to ask whether the blind person wants their help, or even wanted to cross the road - the "assistance" may be voluntary, but is still unwanted, and the person to whom it is offered has every right to reject it.
But then, given your bandying about of the words "neurotic", "kookish" and "Libertarian" to describe a view with which you merely disagree, you might have trouble understanding that concept. Thankfully its validity isn't waiting on your comprehension. In fact, given your tone, something tells me that nothing of any consequence *is*.
(And incidentally, agreeing to be bound by the outcome of an election regardless of one's personal vote is quite definitely *not* a libertarian concept. Rather the opposite, in fact.)
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 2:22 UTC (Tue) by horen (subscriber, #2514) [Link] All this brouhaha about developers and their problems -- as-if they were MTV "divas", or bathroom-wall-tattooed NBA/NFL "stars" (or wannabes). Sheesh, what a lot of words, over nothing. Here's this user's take on it: After 25 years in computer high-tech, hardware and software, but mostly software, it seems to me that most of the writers and poseurs (errr, "posters") have forgotten the Paul Masson Principle of Software Development: "We will release no software, before it's time." Anyone remember that? Anyone not understand what it means? As far as this user is concerned, let them take however long is required. I've been running Debian "Etch" since it was released as a beta-version, junking that abortion-of-a-release known as Fedora Core/6 (after being a loyal and even doctrinaire RedHat user since 1996). So it might take a little bit longer for Debian/4.0 to be released? And what, it might not be available in stores for Xmas? Like Best Buy, Circuit City, or CompUSA?? Give it a break! I've been running and daily-updating "Etch" on my PIII/866 workstation, as well as on my Toshiba Tecra 8100 (PIII/700), and have had zero problems. Repeat after me: "We will release no software, before it's time." Happy Channuka!
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 6:30 UTC (Wed) by jamesh (subscriber, #1159) [Link] Just because a particular piece of software isn't ready for release doesn't mean that the entire distribution should be held up.
The "time based release" idea does not conflict with the "We will release no software, before it's time" principle. In most cases, there is a suitable alternative if a particular piece of software in the distribution isn't ready: the previous version. After all, it was good enough for the previous distribution release ...
And if new distribution releases come out at regular intervals, it isn't the end of the world if a particular piece of software needs to be rolled back to a previous release because it wasn't ready in time: it will be in the next release, and you know when that will come out.
Now it is possible that rolling back some components is not an option, but this is usually the exception rather than the rule. If there are too many things that have release critical bugs and absolutely can't be bumped from the release, then that indicates a problem with the release planning.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 19:05 UTC (Mon) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] Wow.. Passive aggressive developers delay a Debian release... isnt this the same story with different players each release? What are the ways that this can be alleviated for the next release time? Or is this just a problem manufactured around release time by people who need to print stories :)?
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 19:15 UTC (Mon) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] It's turned out that Jaspert was correct. The next release of Debian has been delayed because developers have stayed away from working on Debian because of their objections to two of the developers being paid. The article makes the above statement without anything to back it up. The release of etch is delayed because there are still unfixed, release critical bugs in etch. Currently in the order of 100 of them; about one bug for every ten registered Debian developers. I don't see any evidence that any small group of developers who stopped work on or reduced their work on Debian would have been the people fixing all those bugs. The release of sarge was also delayed for a period of time due to too many RC bugs. This is a problem Debian has been fighting for a long time and it has less to do with the overall number of developers working on a release than with how Debian operates and, IMHO, the metrics it uses to decide what bugs are actually "release ctitical". (The chances of any single user encountering any of the current unfixed release critical bugs in etch is quite unlikely.) Disclosure: I've worked for Debian for over ten years, have been involved in the release team and many other groups in Debian, have been paid to work on Debian in various capacities and by various companies for years and years, and am involved in Dunc Tank.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 22:23 UTC (Mon) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] The article makes the above statement without anything to back it up.Vaughan-Nichols writes some good stuff, but he has a jerky knee. He's sort of like Dvorak with a clue.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 2:51 UTC (Wed) by rickmoen (subscriber, #6943) [Link] tjc wrote:Vaughan-Nichols writes some good stuff, but he has a jerky knee. I think at worst he merely overinterpreted -- the minor vice side of his, I would say, many virtues as a reporter. Andreas Barth has now appended an "update" to that blog entry, to clarify:
Rick Moen
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 2:22 UTC (Tue) by mikov (subscriber, #33179) [Link] The release of sarge was also delayed for a period of time due to too many RC bugs. This is a problem Debian has been fighting for a long time and it has less to do with the overall number of developers working on a release than with how Debian operates and, IMHO, the metrics it uses to decide what bugs are actually "release ctitical". (The chances of any single user encountering any of the current unfixed release critical bugs in etch is quite unlikely.) I can only say, keep up the good work guys, even if that means delaying the release. We don't need compromises with quality. When I need something rock solid I use Debian - it is running on most of my machines, on all servers my company maintains and even on embedded devices we manufacture.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 5:54 UTC (Tue) by grouch (subscriber, #27289) [Link]
Seconded. I really appreciate the excellent work of the Debian developers. Debian sets a high bar. I've never understood the knee-jerk complaint about slow or late releases every time Debian is mentioned and I've been running it almost exclusively since Potato. Sarge is doing just fine for multiple desktop machines for me. I used to start running 'testing' a couple of months after each stable release, but haven't felt the need this time around.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 10:52 UTC (Tue) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] Sarge is doing just fine for multiple desktop machines for me.I had the same opinion till last weekend when I tried to look around subtitle editing software - and didn't found one in sarge. I've downloaded a couple of them from freshmeat, but the C/C++ software didn't even compile, because they depended on newer versions of GTK/Qt than the one in Sarge - I guess that's the sign of age. Anyway, I've found a java tool that worked just fine so I don't need to upgrade (etch still has some unfortunate bugs in bash, so I'd try to avoid the upgrade).
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 2:16 UTC (Wed) by mikov (subscriber, #33179) [Link] I have to admit that running Sarge on the desktop can be ...ahem...difficult sometimes. I use lots of packages from backports.org. I think Debian should continue to add new versions of important software to the stable distribution, even after it has been released. For example, why not add firefox 1.5 or OpenOffice 2.0 to Sarge (under names different from the old versions already in there) ? This is what backports.org does mostly, but it doesn't feel like an integral part of Debian, has no US mirrors (!!!) and doesn't receive security updates.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 18:19 UTC (Tue) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] The release is delayed mainly because the kernel and the installer are not ready. The number of RC bugs is a minor issue compared to that.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 19:17 UTC (Mon) by maney (subscriber, #12630) [Link] Anyone who expected Debian to release in early December must surely have had zero experience with Debian releases. :-/
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 19:24 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] s/Debian/any software/
hell,
s/any software/any project/
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 21:05 UTC (Mon) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] There is lots of software released in December. Just go to freshmeat.net and look for yourself. How about Opera 9.10, OpenOffice.org 2.1 and Java SE 6?
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 21:35 UTC (Mon) by rknop (guest, #66) [Link] s/early December/when originally announced/
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 1:08 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] Um. Yes. That's what I meant. Oops.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 1:53 UTC (Tue) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link] And it's just possible that proski is the only one that didn't understand that.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 3:32 UTC (Tue) by modernjazz (subscriber, #4185) [Link] ...or that proski is funnier than most.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 2:05 UTC (Tue) by mikov (subscriber, #33179) [Link] LOL !!!! Mod parent funny :-)
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 20:50 UTC (Mon) by charris (subscriber, #13263) [Link] I was going to make a snarky comment about politics, but then realized that doing so would violate the fundamental rule: never trust a media report without verification.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 21:44 UTC (Mon) by dark (subscriber, #8483) [Link] Even if you believe the facts alleged in the media report, they do not support the conclusion.
From Andreas Barth's blog:
This in no way means that they did so deliberately, or that their purpose was to delay the release. They may have just become demotivated, or perhaps so tired from the flame war that they took a break from Debian for a while.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 22:16 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] ""This in no way means that they did so deliberately, or that their purpose was to delay the release. They may have just become demotivated, or perhaps so tired from the flame war that they took a break from Debian for a while.""
Is there realy a difference?
I mean they vollenteered, and that's one thing and that's good and such, but you've also have a commitment to other people and to a community when your in that position.
Volunteer != no responsibility.
By pulling out now your realy screwing a lot of people over, people have have put you in a position of trust. I would imagine that it would be much more impressive if you just stuck through with it until the release is out then dropped out of Debian when your not hurting everybody else.
Everybody involved had already agreed to a set way of doing things. The issue was discussed and it was voted on and it was resolved.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 23:44 UTC (Mon) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] My definition of the word "resolved" and yours seem to be in disagreement. If these people are really foot-dragging out of smouldering resentment, then I would say the issue was not really resolved.
Community organizations who do not adopt the difficult but fruitful path of consensus process will always suffer from these sorts of pain, sooner or later.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 3:43 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] ""If these people are really foot-dragging out of smouldering resentment, then I would say the issue was not really resolved.""
As a orginization it is resolved according to the framework they are all agreed to operate in.
If they don't agree to how the orignization is run then they can leave it or use the framework in place to attempt to change it. But by sitting there and simply not doing work then it seems that they are attempting sabotage debian. If they are stomping around and pissed off and demotivated and are tired of getting in flamewars about it because they can't drop it.. then that's their own lack of maturity showing through.
It's all about timing, realy. Now is not the time to be going through this sort of stuff. After the release when people just start working on the next stable then that would be a much more appropriate time to attempt to change the course of Debian.
If I was not happy with Dunc Tank and all that then I'd wait till after the release then realy go to town with making this a big issue, rather then now.
I would do this for several reasons..
-- the second major part would be that by showing how me and my fellow travellers are willing to buckle down and get the work done then that would make my group of people seem to be a very valueable assit to the Debian community instead of appearing to be a liability. This will obligate people to pay closer attention to my position as they will feel gratefull for the work I have done.
I don't know if this is what is going on (people being passive/agressive by purposely slowing down work), but if it is then that sucks.
If it isn't and these people are just living their lives and are dealing with more important priorities (family, fun, work, etc) that is causing the delay and that is the then I would like to apologize in advance, for casting aspersions that they are being petty.
I am perfectly willing to beleive that they are just in a time crunch and that is all that is happenning. Not going to hate them or think they are lazy or anything unless somebody has more proof.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 20, 2006 8:00 UTC (Wed) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] I view your opinion like the one that says no language/api/etc is too hard/problematic; programmers should just not make mistakes. Sure people shouldn't do bad things, but a shut-up-after-you-lose-the-vote system will always result in these kinds of problems.
Maybe my view isn't terribly productive or insightful given that Debian is not about to develop a consensus-based decision making process, but I think it's worth grasping that this is a necessary outflow of the structure.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 21, 2006 1:03 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] It's just maturity.
It's not realy equivelent to saying 'programmers shouldn't make mistakes'. All programmers make mistakes and it's impossible to avoid.
But in this case it's not like that. Lots of people are perfectly capable of setting aside personal greviences to get a job done. It happens everyday and in all walks of life.
You simply are not going to be able to get along with everything. Somebody or something about any orginization is just going to straight piss you off.
And it's not permanate, it's temporary. That is why it's perfectly and reasonably possible.
It's the final mile. The end is in sight. It's all down hill from here. etc etc. The stable release has been frozen and a handfull of the 16k packages just need to be fixed and then that's it. Another release out the door and it's over.
This is the final result of a over a year of hard work from hundreds of individuals. Years worth of man-hours. Who would want to muck this all up right now over something this petty?
Any other time if somebody was pissed and didn't want to work at it anymore and wanted to slack off then, hey, by all means. I don't have any problem with that at all. Just make sure that you let other people know what is going on so they can find a replacement for you.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 23:51 UTC (Mon) by dark (subscriber, #8483) [Link] Being a Debian developer does not mean volunteering to do whatever amount of work is necessary to meet someone else's standards. It's quite possible to be a conscientious package maintainer, without putting in the extra effort that would be necessary to meet a particular release date. For example, maybe you used to be an enthusiastic participant in the bugsquashing parties, but now no longer feel like doing so.
Separately from that, the "set way of doing things" is encoded in the Debian Constitution, which says: "Nothing in this constitution imposes an obligation on anyone to do work for the Project. A person who does not want to do a task which has been delegated or assigned to them does not need to do it. However, they must not actively work against these rules and decisions properly made under them."
You sound like you're redefining "must not actively work against" as "must continue to do good work in favor".
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 3:22 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] No.
I am just talking about a person says they are going to do something and then they don't do it.
I don't know if that is what is going on here, but if it is true then that's realy screwed up thing to do.
It's like somebody asking a roomfull of people:
and I say:
The after that other guy is at the airport he calls me:
and I say:
And then I turn off my phone and go bowling instead.
That's seriously screwed up stuff to do to somebody and we didn't even sign or agree to a contract or anything.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 19, 2006 4:29 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] It doesn't seem that the above is true to what is happenning.
So that makes me happy that Debian isn't going through a melt down or anything.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 21:59 UTC (Mon) by vorlon42 (subscriber, #28435) [Link] Indeed, I'm embarrassed for the author of the original article. Attributing to Andi a statement that the release has been delayed *because* people have reduced their involvement in Debian? It's possible to acknowledge that some developers have reduced their involvement in Debian over the Dunc-Tank issue, and even to regret this, without believing this is the cause of any problems along the way to etch's release. This apparently deliberate misquote is bad journalism at its worst.
Disgruntled Debian developers delay Etch (Linux-Watch) Posted Dec 18, 2006 23:31 UTC (Mon) by aba (subscriber, #24118) [Link] Nice to be cited, but not nice if the citation doesn't match what I really meant.
Update Posted Dec 19, 2006 2:12 UTC (Tue) by mikov (subscriber, #33179) [Link] There is an update on Andreas Barth's blog:
I think the article had a sensationalist feel to it. Actually, even if Debian doesn't release in December, but say, in March 2007, it would still have been a timely release. These things must not be rushed.
Update Posted Dec 19, 2006 12:17 UTC (Tue) by maks (subscriber, #32426) [Link] yup we (speaking as customer deploying Debian on University labs) want some ass stable Release and that takes some time, so march is fine.
Update Posted Dec 19, 2006 17:39 UTC (Tue) by deucalion (subscriber, #12904) [Link] January would be appreciated as well, however. ;-)- a happy debian user
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