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Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry StandardEcma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry StandardPosted Dec 9, 2006 6:12 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333)In reply to: Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard by dmarti Parent article: Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard
That would be nice.
But unfortunately even developers who make and profess to beleive in free software and open standards aren't even caring enough to do things like encode interviews and such into Theora.
Unfortunately nowadays 5 times out of 7 I want to see some interview or speech or something and they have the stupid thing up in Flash format.
I can't even watch that crap on my laptop as there is no flash plugin, and even if there was why not do something that is completely Free software?
It boggles the mind.
I have very little hope for stuff like ODF when even Free/Open source software folks still prefer to use propriatory formats like mpeg or flash or mp3 over open formats like ogg vorbis and theora.
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Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 9, 2006 12:40 UTC (Sat) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link] Though I prefer vorbis and theora over the others myself I have to say, that MPEG and MP3 _are_ open formats, thoroughly documented and both implemented in many completely free softwares. Just because legislation in some countries prohibits you from using it without some license does not change this fact.
This would be like saying that Wikipedia contents is not free or open, just because it's prohibited to read it in Iran.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 9, 2006 13:51 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Ya well in my country they are restricted.
Theora and Ogg are not. Free software codecs developed for the specific use of being open and having no royalties or restrictions on their creation or use, but yet I have yet to see anybody use them for video outside of maybe RMS requiring it for records.
So you see exactly why I have no faith that ODF will accomplish much of anything. OpenXML is 'open' also.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 9, 2006 20:33 UTC (Sat) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link] "Theora and Ogg are not. Free software codecs developed for the specific use of being open and having no royalties or restrictions on their creation or use, but yet I have yet to see anybody use them for video outside of maybe RMS requiring it for records."
See me here:
http://www.ourmedia.org/user/17145
Theora videos there.
And here:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=%28creator%3A%22d...
Ogg vorbis audio there.
And I really do agree. It is not a wise more for people who care about Free to not support each other wherever possible.
all the best,
drew
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 9, 2006 19:08 UTC (Sat) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] This is a good point. Unencumbered and open spec are different issues, and so mpeg has a pretty reasonable aspect to it, problemed though it is.
However, drag was talking about flash video, ie. vp6. This is not open in any sense, and is technically quite poor to boot. It's larger, more cpu hungry, degrades more poorly with network dropouts. Why anyone ever uses this format is beyond me. But for free software developers to choose a closed format that requires a proprietary player is quite a mystery.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 9, 2006 20:19 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] Is it? A mystery??
Post a Theora video on your website and ask your girlfriend to play it. Let's assume she's using Windows because 99.9% of girlfriends are. If 1/2 hour later she's managed to figre out what a codec is, find non-spyware codecs to download and installed them, then you have an uncommonly inquisitive and tenacious girlfriend. Now put her on a Mac or a Linux box and see how she does.
Now post it on YouTube and ask her to play it. 2 sends later it's playing, no matter what platform she's on (no, she's NOT using a MIPS box, obviously, this is not the place to whine about what platforms support Flash).
Convenience counts for a lot.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 9, 2006 20:37 UTC (Sat) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link] "Post a Theora video on your website and ask your girlfriend to play it." etc...
You need to think outside the box more. Tell her that the video contains information that will lead her to her new diamond bracelet. (Change gift as deemed appropriate.)
all the best,
drew
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 10, 2006 0:02 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Theora is as convient as quicktime for Windows users and it is as convient as WMV for OS X users.
The reason people are using Flash is partially because of it being convient, but it also has a lot to do with that the fact that it's not aviable in convient format for storage.
That is if you put a download to your website a person downloads it and emails it to friends and such..
But if you put it in Flash, like youtube, were your website is advertising-driven then they are forced to come back to that web page over and over again to view it. Drives up advertising revenue quite a bit.
Also it adds extra restrictions on usage so people are more comfortable uploading content because they don't think that people can 'steal' it.
So flash is used, in a large way, because it is awkward to deal with.
Of course both you and I know there is ways around this, but it's still a PITA.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 10, 2006 0:02 UTC (Sun) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] I undestand the convenience issue. For some content, eschewing convenience to encourage adoption of free tools is useful. There is no reason that theora <objects> cannot be as convenient when the right software is installed.
Of course, the right software is not always installed, so for some content, the convenience factor is more important than promoting freedom.
But content availability is not an exclusive choice.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 10, 2006 1:04 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] I agree with everything you say. I'll elaborate a bit.
If there was a Firefox extension to stream Theora videos, shipped in the default install of all major distros, Theora usage would take a mighty leap forward. Furthermore, if there were a single InstallShield download, appearing in the #1 slot when you search on "Theora" in Google, that enabled playback in IE6/7, Windows Media, and Firefox Windows, I think Theora could very well take off. You'd see sites like nhl.com using it to stream because it's cheaper and easier than Real and MS formats.
Alas, today the right Theora software doesn't even exist, much less come pre-installed anywhere.
In my experience, it was the utter lack of usability that killed Voribis. The file format rocked, the tools sucked. I pray the same fate doesn't befall Theora.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 10, 2006 7:00 UTC (Sun) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] I have to dissagree with vorbis being 'killed'.
It's not as popular as mp3 or itunes stuff, but it's supported by many different peices of software, used in a lot of games, and is supported by a wide veriaty of hardware.
It's actually quite widely known.
If people actually start _using_ theora then it will be known. Your not going to have a codec get accepted just becuase it has a cool name, there has to be a reason for people to go and download it.
Ogg is quite kick-ass. 255 possible audio channels, Theora has good compression and I expect that subtitles support is good compared to AVI. Very recently there has been supported added to Flac for Ogg support.
So even from a pure technical standpoint there are plenty or reasons to use Ogg Theora/Flac/Vorbis for a wide veriaty of stuff. You can create some very feature-rich media files and media streaming is very smart.
The major downside for Theora, in my personal experiance, is that the codec itself is not well optimized cpu-wise. I am sure it's been improved since then, but I also expect that there is work to do.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 10, 2006 11:38 UTC (Sun) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] I agree with everything you say.
Except the thing about Vorbis. The tools are fine. Vorbis is much easier to deal with for me than mp3.
Even if Voribis is dead, long live Vorbis ;-) Posted Dec 10, 2006 12:02 UTC (Sun) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] > In my experience, it was the utter lack of usability that killed Voribis.Not sure what are you tawkin' about, sure not of Ogg Vorbis? libogg/libvorbis are quite demanded on my systems and by folks' players/encoders around.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 29, 2006 0:15 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Well I have done some more research on Theora.
The problem with theora isn't so much that it's difficult but that it's already obsolete. Stillbirth, so to say.
It's based on the VP3 codec which has acceptable quality, but it has been surpased by more modern codecs such as H.264, VP6, or VP7. The quality is comparable to Mpeg1, which is to say that it's not realy good at all.
This is very different from Ogg Vorbis, which is superior or at least comparable to other modern codecs.
The open source codecs to possibly look out for are Dirac from the BBC and Snow from the FFmpeg people.
Also as far as the 'patent-free'-ness of theora goes... It is protected by patent granted to it by the original creators of V3, but unfortunately it's still infringing on just as much stuff as any other mpeg* codec. So if they are encumbered, then so is Theora.
This is to bad and I wish I understood this earlier, then I wouldn't of looked like such a.. not-to-smart-guy.
Ecma International Approves Office Open XML as Worldwide Industry Standard Posted Dec 12, 2006 14:20 UTC (Tue) by pointwood (guest, #2814) [Link] I have seen Theora being used several times, but the fact is that according to the project itself, it is still alpha software. My general understanding is that alpha == not quite ready yet ;)
Note: I would love to see the Xiph.org formats used more. One problem I personally have is dr.dk (can best be described as the danish bbc). They use a Microsoft solution and that of course doesn't work that well together anything but MS Windows. Considering the fact that everyone in DK with a TV, radio or a broadband connection (rules changed recently) are required to pay for it (it is a public service station), it should be a requirement that they offer solutions that works for everyone. The problem is that there really isn't any good open source solutions available currently.
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