Red Hat downplays Novell/Microsoft deal (ArsTechnica) [LWN.net]

Red Hat downplays Novell/Microsoft deal (ArsTechnica)

Posted Nov 7, 2006 12:02 UTC (Tue) by eru (subscriber, #2753)
In reply to: Red Hat downplays Novell/Microsoft deal (ArsTechnica) by niner
Parent article: Red Hat downplays Novell/Microsoft deal (ArsTechnica)

There is a difference between religious fanatics,

It is a sad sign of our ultra-materialistic times that those making decisions based on their convictions, instead of immediate material considerations, so easily get labeled fanatics...

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Red Hat downplays Novell/Microsoft deal (ArsTechnica)

Posted Nov 7, 2006 12:09 UTC (Tue) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link]

Word.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 7, 2006 12:39 UTC (Tue) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

Those making decisions based on their convictions are what I called the second group. They believe that in the long term free software will benefit everyone. I certainly belong to that group.

But there are other people: "Microsoft is Satan and everyone and everything touched by Microsoft is tainted and doomed." That _is_ religious fanatism. And one should watch out not to slip in that direction. It could damage the cause more than help.

Let me explain, why I think this is the case here:
Novell builds products based on free software. It has a certain market share, thus I think one can say, that they fulfill a certain need better than their competition. If one says that Novell is "tainted" and should be avoided without a really good reason, one removes a choice from the market that would for some be better than the competition. Maybe these people switch to free software competitors anyway, maybe they switch away from free software entirely and the whole free software community suffers.

Thus the question is: is the Novell/Microsoft deal a good enough reason to risk this? And I think it is not. Fanatics may only see that for every package Novell sells a part of the money goes to Microsoft.

So what? In return Microsoft advertises Novell products. That's what this part of the deal is: Novell has engaged Microsoft as an advertiser. And it really makes no difference if they pay a certain amount in advance or a certain amount per sold package. That's just payment details.

There was no cryout for any other advertising deal Novell has made and rightly so. So what's the difference here? Only that Microsoft is the advertiser. That's considered bad. Maybe that's right, but what would be if Novell engaged a Microsoft owned advertising company. Would that be good or bad? What if it engaged a company that Microsoft owns a part? What about a company that has a loan from the Microsoft bank? What about an advertising company that has done ads for Microsoft?

Where to draw the line?

Yes, I believe that free software benefits me, my friends, our company, and ultimately the whole world. But no, I don't believe in witch hunts and crying "Satan".
Yes, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and has commited many crimes and free software would get an instant boost if they would cease to exist. But that's only one solution. Even Microsoft publishes free software.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 7, 2006 13:58 UTC (Tue) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

If it really were only about Novell paying Microsoft for advertisement, I wouldn't have any problem with it. But Novell is really paying royalty for some unspecified Microsoft IP in Linux, and that undermines Linux in a rather fundamental way, as discussed by many here, and elsewhere.

Going back to the "who is a fanatic issue", one does not have to believe "Microsoft is the Satan" or something like that in order to want to avoid dealing with them. Obviously the company exists to make money, but I can dislike the way they do that, and prefer companies more in harmony with my values.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 7, 2006 15:11 UTC (Tue) by jedidiah (guest, #20319) [Link]

> But there are other people: "Microsoft is Satan and everyone
> and everything touched by Microsoft is tainted and doomed." That
> _is_ religious fanatism. And one should watch out not to slip in
> that direction. It could damage the cause more than help.

No it isn't. It's simply the conclusion most consistent with the available facts. You are simply attempting to express the truth in an excessively inflammatory manner in an attempt to make it seem less rational.

There are VERY REAL intellectual property landmines to consider here. You do know one any favors by attempting to casually sweep them aside. Members of the development community have already had to deal with this with Microsoft (namely Jeremy Allison).

Attempting to invoke "witch hunts" only cheapens some really serious issues that need to be dealt with in a VERY serious manner here. This will require a great deal of oversight and rigour rather than people just hiding their heads in the sand and hoping that a company known for dirty tricks doesn't pull any.

If it takes a little hysteria to "wake" some people up, then that's not a bad thing in the end.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 7, 2006 16:11 UTC (Tue) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

The original poster said, and I quote again:
"Given this, could you really imagine an experienced system administrator, someone who advocates the OSS software and community model being happy to purchase a SuSE product after this deal? Knowing that a bit part of the sell price will be diverted to Microsoft?"

This is what I responded to.

He almost calls for a boycott of a company that employs many good and important kernel-, KDE- and other hackers just because they bought advertising from Microsoft. Now if this is no witch hunt, I don't know what else.

Of course, there's still the patent part of the deal which I lost not a single word about as it's an entirely different matter which the original poster did not touch either.

I did not sweep aside any intellectual property landmindes, simply because I did not even take part in a discussion about them.

But you give a very good example of what I'm warning about: exploding because of a matter that was not even discussed. You projected your discussion and thoughts in my posting and thereby put words in my mouth that did not come from me. And will not, simply because I'm not stupid and certainly know the danger that comes from Microsoft and any patent or intellecutal property deal.

I simply try not to over-react and wait till more information is available.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 7, 2006 17:13 UTC (Tue) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link]

So you are a religious fanatic. Your religion is, focus on a small bit that is a side issue and ignore the obvious larger problem.

Using "religious fanatic" to describe someone in a context that has nothing to do with religion is bullshit. It serves no useful purpose. All it means is that you disagree with the comments but don't think your arguments are strong enough to support your position, therefore there needs to be some unrelated hot button added.

The "original poster" is not calling for a boycott, but is asking questions.

"just because they bought advertising from Microsoft" <== that is not true, because obviously they didn't just buy advertising.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 7, 2006 17:44 UTC (Tue) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

You obviously did not really read what I wrote, so please excuse me if I do not repeat myself again.

I only want to point out, that you are the only one that has called any one person here a "religious fanatic".

Please let's stick to the LWN tradition of real discussions instead of just flaming.
If a discussion is what you want, let me know.

you misunderstood

Posted Nov 8, 2006 20:21 UTC (Wed) by pcampe (subscriber, #28223) [Link]

>He almost calls for a boycott of a company

First, boycott a company is usually acceptable. Boycott a person is unacceptable.

Second, I have some difficulties in buying a product which contradicts my vision of the world and my ideals.

Third, I'll change my mind if Novell will fund OSS projects for the entire cash they get from Microsoft (250 millions). Otherwise, good bye and good luck, and not on my servers.