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Bruce Peren's takeBruce Peren's takePosted Nov 3, 2006 16:25 UTC (Fri) by jsarets (guest, #39560)In reply to: Bruce Peren's take by scottt Parent article: Various responses to Microsoft/Novell
The GPLv2 makes it clear that code cannot be distributed under the GPL if the recipient would need to acquire any additional licenses (with or without royalties) not granted by the distributor in order to redistribute under the same terms. The gray area here is whether offering an optional service that includes non-transferrable membership in a patent covenant with Microsoft necessarily implies that such protection is required to use and distribute the covered software without violating Microsoft's IP.
If Microsoft asserts that some or all SUSE Linux software infringes on its IP, then Novell cannot distribute this software under the GPL, regardless of its deal with Microsoft. If Microsoft is bluffing and doesn't intend on following this announcement by, say, suing Red Hat, then it stands to question whether Novell's decision to license Microsoft IP necessarily implies that their software infringes this IP. If it does, then Novell would be violating the GPL by distributing this software. If it doesn't, then it isn't clear that the GPLv2 prohibits this deal. It isn't illegal to sell excessive insurance policies, and it wouldn't seem illegal to sell unneeded patent protection for unencumbered GPL software.
The lesson from the SCO case is simple: before we cede ground, implicitly admit that our free software stack is encumbered, and start paying for licenses, we need to know what we're infringing. Novell wants to apologize to Microsoft on behalf of the Linux community for stealing their IP, but we have nothing to apologize for... besides Novell's shameful disregard for the principles of free software and the GPL that governs much of its distribution.
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Bruce Peren's take Posted Nov 3, 2006 17:23 UTC (Fri) by ghelmling (guest, #4140) [Link] Which really raises the question of what the value of this is to Novell and why they even entered into this agreement?
Doesn't this essentially give Microsoft a "remote kill" switch over Novell's Linux business? All they have to do is file a patent infringement lawsuit against anyone for using the Linux kernel and they put Novell in violation of the GPL...
Just like Sun. Posted Nov 3, 2006 17:49 UTC (Fri) by NZheretic (guest, #409) [Link] April 6, 2004 Did Sun Have to to Choose "Between Shame and War"?April 14, 2004 A 'Very Good Thing' for whom? Microsoft's MCPP November 29,2004 The conflict between MCPP and Open Source Finally Sun's James Gosling on February 3, 2005 Java creator questions Sun/Microsoft pact.
SuSE's death Posted Nov 3, 2006 17:39 UTC (Fri) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link] Didn't we kinda know from the start that SuSE was doomed when Novell bought it? We tried hard to believe in it, but really, annoucement after annoucement, things were not looking good. SuSE running Gnome was a killer for me, as SuSE was really associated to KDE from the beginning. Xgl developped outside of the community was also a stab in the back IMO, showing that Novell was not interested in working with the community, but more in spite of it, and the GPL.
I think it's time to either fork SuSE to give it back its soul, or leave it to rot and use its competitors instead (personally, I didn't touch it ever since Novell bought it).
SuSE's death Posted Nov 3, 2006 18:58 UTC (Fri) by beoba (guest, #16942) [Link] Not to be a jerk, but why comment on Novell's influence on SuSE if you haven't used it since Novell bought it? (or am I misunderstanding your last sentence?) I haven't used it, so I don't have any strong opinions about it in either direction.
SuSE's death Posted Nov 3, 2006 19:17 UTC (Fri) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] When people say stuff like 'give back suse it's soul'.. they realy mean 'get rid of Gnome and go back to KDE'.
As far as I am concerned Novell was a good thing for Suse.
For instance they open sourced YAST. (which unfortunately was too late to save it in terms of more widespread usage)
SuSE's death Posted Nov 3, 2006 21:43 UTC (Fri) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link] Yes, that's exactly what I meant: SuSE and KDE always were like the two fingers of the hand :-) Putting Gnome as default on SuSE feels like if Ubuntu was changing to KDE and creating a new Gubuntu project for Gnome users. It would lose its soul IMO (and that's from a Kubuntu user!).
Since when is Gnome default? Posted Nov 6, 2006 9:02 UTC (Mon) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link] I wonder where you have that "Gnome is default" stuff from? Because it's definitely untrue. SUSE 10.1 gives you the choice when installing and neither KDE, nor Gnome is preselected. The choices are equal. And this doesn't change with 10.2 AFAIK.
Yes, it's true, that there are now mono- (and thus gtk2) based administration programs like the software updater and the compiz configuration. But for both of them the next version will have KDE-based replacements. And the new software updater looks really nice.
Sometimes it really is better to build your own opinion and see first hand. Which ain't really difficult with everything being available for free and such.
Since when is Gnome default? Posted Nov 6, 2006 11:14 UTC (Mon) by alonso (subscriber, #2828) [Link] They do that and then rethink about the decision. And I think that the default destop for SLED is gnome.
SuSE's death Posted Nov 4, 2006 2:25 UTC (Sat) by heise2k (guest, #41269) [Link] Yes. I have liked SuSE since a long time, and was sad when Novell boughtthem. I did like the strong KDE relationship and more European flavour of the German SuSE. To be fair openSUSE has had good KDE support, but all that mono garbage like beagle and the zmd/redcarpet crap that needs to be disabled is horrible. Gnome is cute, and part of me kind of wants to like it, but it is so hard to do real things with. Maybe some people like less functionality, less options, less interoperability, less performance, etc.
YAST is cool, but the new updater sucks; hard. I have taken to using smart
I am still hoping things don't turn out as bad as I and many others think
-Bob
SuSE's death Posted Nov 3, 2006 21:58 UTC (Fri) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link] Sorry if I was unclear in my previous post; I was not commenting about user experience, only decisions taken by Novell for SuSE, which are public and reported in this wonderful news site. I suppose I am not the only one to be of the opinion that Novell killed SuSE's soul, having read about a number of ex-SuSE managers leaving after the 'merge'...
SuSE's death Posted Nov 4, 2006 16:14 UTC (Sat) by ajross (subscriber, #4563) [Link] Have you people lost your senses? Novell has signed a patent cross licensing agreement with Microsoft and implicitly become part of the "idemnification" FUD regime that started with the SCO lawsuit.And yet, what you really seem to be upset about, and want to flame about, is that they use Gnome?! Get some perspective please.
SuSE's death Posted Nov 5, 2006 11:15 UTC (Sun) by epeeist (guest, #1743) [Link] > And yet, what you really seem to be upset about, and want to flame about, is that they use Gnome
Gnome doesn't bother me particularly, I prefer KDE but that is what it is, a preference.
The thing that bothers me is Mono. There have been some pretty weasely words about this from it inception, as to its patent or non-patent encumbrances, what it might or might not implement that might or might not be MS IP and the MS attitude to this.
Given the pronouncement by De Icaza you have to wonder what his motives were both in developing Mono and his next job destination.
If Mono comes to be seen as tainted then there are implications for Gnome, though I think these are probably minor.
whatever Posted Nov 6, 2006 8:28 UTC (Mon) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Mono isn't any more or less 'tainted' then any other thing.
Samba is much more of a risk then Mono, but I haven't heard anybody try to claim that those developers want to go work for Microsoft.
Seriously. Don't you understand how software patents work and people like Bruce Perens go on and on about the threats.
EVERYTHING VIOLATES PATENTS. Not for a fact, but if I assume that all Linux projects violate patents I will be right probably more then 90% of the time.
The Linux kernel violates patents.
KDE violates patents.
Gnome violates patents.
Apache violates patents.
Gstreamer violates patents.
And KDE 4 will violate patents, as will Qt4.
Do I know which specific patents. No. But that doesn't matter because I have a pretty decent idea about how software patents work and I know about the vast number of patents and It's about as a accurate as guess as:
Ragging on Mono for possible violations completely and 100% ignores the larger issues with software patents and Free software. In fact Mono is probably safer because your going to have a hard time, as Microsoft, convincing a judge that it's OK to release documentation on a programming language with the intention of creating a standard and hide any patents so that other people can adopt it so later on you can sue them and destroy them.
In the past with companies like Cisco creating standards they told everybody what patents they have over that standard.
People like Samba or OpenOffice.org or Abiword is at a much higher threat because they are implimenting features and capabilities of Microsoft's software were Microsoft never intended to have anybody else use.
Cross patent licensing deals is 100% natural and for Novell. They are a pro-software patent company like IBM or Oracle or the majority of large corporate software makers. Since they know they can't avoid violating patents they do cross-patent licensing with everybody else as a standard way to defend against patent litigation. This is normal.
It's VERY obvious that they didn't consult with Miguel or any other linux developers they employ. Each one says they didn't know about it until a few days before the announcement.
As far as Suse goes.. Everybody seems to completely ignore the fact that Suse was halfway propriatory company anyways. They tried the old thing were they added propriatory software to Linux to try to make it worth paying for. Now OpenSuse is completely Free as is Yast now open.
whatever Posted Nov 6, 2006 16:10 UTC (Mon) by dbreakey (guest, #1381) [Link] A lot of people seem to forget what the problems with patents really are. To summarize, as far as I know, the essential problem is as follows:
With a copyright, all you need to do is figure out a new way of accomplishing the same end result. A patent removes that option because the concept rather than the implementation is protected. Another part of the problem is that patents are granted in much the same way as copyrights—namely, far too easily. There are hundreds, probably thousands of examples that were granted that fail the non-obviousness requirement of a typical patent (generally accepted to mean that a patentable invention must be non-obvious to an experienced member—ie: of typical expertise—of the relevant field). Part of the issue here is simply the fact that the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office is both woefully understaffed and are now expected to have expertise in a range of fields that are far outside of their experience. Hence patents are often granted, that shouldn't be, simply because they don't have the time or expertise necessary to evaluate them properly.
whatever Posted Nov 7, 2006 10:11 UTC (Tue) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] Theoretically, patetnts are supposed to protect methods, which are sort of like implementations but a bit abstracted. They aren't supposed to protect abstract ideas. The problem is the domain of "methods" has become so distended to encompass basic things like mathematics, so that effectively in some domains ideas are patented, or else enough similar patents are registered such that the idea might as well be patented.
Sigh.
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