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GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapperGPL-only symbols and ndiswrapperPosted Oct 25, 2006 20:11 UTC (Wed) by josh_stern (guest, #4868)Parent article: GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper
After reading it through, I came around to the belief that the kernel developers actual point of view is that ndiswrapper was misrepresenting itself as GPL when it is is really only LGPL - sort of analogous to the complaint that distributing GPL's KDE was illegal in the days before Qt-X11 become (optionally) GPL.
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GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 25, 2006 21:02 UTC (Wed) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] The only difference between GPL and LGPL is that the latter comes with a promise not to argue about the exact issue being argued about here. So what is your point, exactly?
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 25, 2006 22:45 UTC (Wed) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]
My point is that ndiswrapper seems like something that really should be LGPL rather than GPL as it depends on linking with proprietary code in order to be useful to people. Since my understanding of EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL is that it is specifically designed as a mechanism for some kernel authors to prohibit their code from being used within a work that is not really GPL, the approach taken by the kernel developers as described in the article seems reasonable to me. They are basically saying that ndiswrapper's claim to be GPL compatible is a sham. That is, it's doubtful that those developers who made their contributions EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL had really wanted to allow something like ndiswrapper.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 25, 2006 21:28 UTC (Wed) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] I don't see any references to LGPL in ndiswrapper code.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 25, 2006 22:39 UTC (Wed) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]
I'm saying that ndiswrapper is really an LGPL concept covertly hiding in GPL clothing. It depends on the ability to link with proprietary stuff in order to do what it is intended to do.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 25, 2006 23:53 UTC (Wed) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] Please see above.There is no difference between the GPL and the LGPL except for a promise not to argue. ndiswrapper is not LGPL, so we are inflicted with the argument.
The GPL/LGPL does not prohibit linking to non-GPL code. It only restricts, potentially, the distribution of such a combination. That is not the issue here. Rather we are concerned about end use, which is outside the purview of the GPL. Some people may also be opposed to the end use, but they must find some mechanism other than a claim of GPL infrigement to exercise that opposition.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 1:29 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link] It is understood that it is not technically a license violation to distribute ndiswrapper. But the discussion here is not about legal technicalities but rather about whether it was appropriate behavior for the kernel developers to redefine their policy wrt ndiswrapper and EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL. From my point of view, the new policy is understandable as something designed to better support the intentions of the developers who wanted the use of their code restricted (note - it wouldn't be surprising if Linus accepted later patches introducing different implementations without those restrictions, but that's not really the point). So the discussion about appropriateness should center on whether it was a good idea to respect the intentions of those developers at the expense of user inconvenience.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 13:19 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] Ah, in the GPLv3 it is bad that end use is restricted.
But with ndiswrapper, it's good.
This is a perfect example of hypocrisy from the kernel developers, that's all.
Joachim
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 14:48 UTC (Thu) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] > Ah, in the GPLv3 it is bad that end use is restricted.
Actually, despite what the kernel developers might tell you, GPLv3 does
Shouldn't be IMO, but I don't make these decisions for Linux.
Sadly, indeed.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Nov 3, 2006 0:40 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] For my argument, it doesn't matter if the GPLv3 restricts end use or not.
It matters that that the kernel developers argue against GPLv3 because they think it restricts end use and they cannot tolerate such restrictions. But then they restrict end use themselves in the case of ndiswrapper. This inconsistent behavior is hypocrisy, independent of the legal facts.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Nov 3, 2006 1:17 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] As reported on this very site, that was an accident. No hypocrisy here.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Nov 3, 2006 1:44 UTC (Fri) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] Please click on the link in your post, then click on "Thread", and then read the comments of Alan Cox, Adrian Bunk, and others. Also Arjan van de Ven to some extent (he wants to patch it now, but doesn't acknowledge the USB problem). Please note as well that the thread states that the kernel developers think seriously about reintroducing the problem in 6 months again, just to give ndiswrapper developers and users more time to plan some action until then. (Well, but what action? Maybe installing Windows because Linux won't support their exotic USB hardware any more? 0.5 ;-) )
I didn't want to imply that all kernel developers have the opinion that ndiswrapper is illegal, but important and well known people have, as shown in the thread from your link.
Btw, I don't even use ndiswrapper myself. So my opinion is not connected to any influence on my own usage of Linux. It is a general observation about a behavior of kernel developers that I don't understand.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 3:18 UTC (Thu) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] It depends on the ability to link with proprietary stuff in order to do what it is intended to do. This same assertion about ndiswrapper happened on the Debian mailing lists, regarding whether it was non-free. Some people argued that nothing prevented you using ndiswrapper to load a GPL-licensed Windows driver, were such a beast to exist. Since ndiswrapper's own license doesn't preclude the loading of a GPL (or otherwise DFSG-free) driver, it didn't therefore deserve to be in non-free. Or, indeed, you might be writing Windows drivers and want to try loading them in ndiswrapper. This was a contentious point, and although I personally feel the logic makes sense, others felt the practical reality that there is currently no free driver overruled this and consigned ndiswrapper to non-free. I seem to recall a slim majority holding to that latter viewpoint, though the maintainer himself felt it was suitable for main and no-one requested Debian's Technical Committee override his decision.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 3:44 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]
Personally, I would have supported the decision that Debian made and I would also support people who wanted to remove GPL-only symbols from the kernel. Here I'm just saying that I also support the decision of other kernel developers not to allow unintended workarounds for using GPL-only symbol code once they've already accepted that way of doing things.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 10:47 UTC (Thu) by syntaxis (guest, #18897) [Link] Currently ndiswrapper is in Debian main, not non-free. http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?searchon=sourcenames\ &version=all&exact=1&keywords=ndiswrapper
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 27, 2006 2:12 UTC (Fri) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link] <blockquote>Currently ndiswrapper is in Debian main</blockquote>
Yes, that's what I said :) I probably wasn't very clear, but I said the maintainer felt it was OK for main and no-one tried to override his decision, implying that the maintainer's decision held.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 31, 2006 4:45 UTC (Tue) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] I believe you misunderstood the discussion. I don't think moving ndiswrapper to non-free was even considered. It was discussed whether to put ndiswrapper to contrib. Software in contrib is required to follow the DFSG, but it's allowed to depend on non-free software. In other words, nobody challenged the notion that ndiswrapper was free software per se.All "linking" is happening in the kernel memory on the end user system. There is no such thing as ndiswrapper "linked" to a non-free driver for the purpose of distribution.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 1:56 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link] LGPL code can be included in the kernel, just like BSD code can be included in the kernel.
so even if ndiswrapper was LGPL instead of GPL, how does that make it less acceptable?
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 2:05 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]
I meant that ndiswrapper has an LPGL-like philosophy that is ideologically incompatible with the intent of those kernel developers who wanted their work to use EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL only. At least that is my interpretation.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 8:05 UTC (Thu) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] But at no time is the GPL ever violated. The GPL says we can't distribute free- and non-free code (either in source or binary form) together. But nobody is doing that.
Ndiswrapper itself is GPL. The kernel code is GPL. Windows binaries are never GPL. You could certainly make the argument that distributing all three of these together violates the GPL, but *that is not what is happening here*.
Rather, they seem to be upset that end-users are using ndiswrapper to load proprietary drivers. But an end-user who uses ndiswrapper to load a Windows binary is NOT VIOLATING THE GPL, because he is not distributing it.
This is pure bullshit. The kernel devs are trying to restrict what end users do with their systems, which is as profoundly un-GPL and as un-free as you get. This kind of move is something you'd expect from Microsoft or Apple.
Fortunately, they have a lot less power to enforce their edicts, since their changes can generally be patched out, but making this edict at all shows that they really don't understand the license they're using.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 11:06 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] ""This is pure bullshit. The kernel devs are trying to restrict what end users do with their systems, which is as profoundly un-GPL and as un-free as you get. This kind of move is something you'd expect from Microsoft or Apple.""
No they aren't. You just change the names around an it works fine. You just comment out the 3 lines or so that check for ndiswrapper.
There are a dozen easy ways to work around this and the kernel developers know it.
People are ignoring new open source drivers and such because their stuff works with ndiswrapper. This is entirely unsupported and can't be depended on working. People are told that it does work though, when they shouldn't be told anything of the sort.
They don't want to end up in a position were manufaturers are using ndiswrapper as a excuse for not supporting Linux.
For instance Texas Instrument used the existance of the linuxant and ndiswrapper drivers for not supporting Linux for their wifi stuff. This is a fact. They even advertise this fact by in a press release that they support linux by helping out conextent development.
If their hardware works fine in ndiswrapper then what possible justification can you provide for releasing documentation and code for writing proper drivers?!
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 11:58 UTC (Thu) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] In other words, you just agreed with me that it IS NOT about the GPL. It has nothing to do with the GPL. The GPL is a big fat red herring.
They're using their code to try to control what end-users do. They are painting it as a GPL issue, when it isn't. This is either dishonesty or poor thinking on their part. If they want people to use the open source drivers, they should be doing it a different way, not deliberately breaking people's machines.
The HONEST approach would be to refuse to load ndiswrapper with an error message. "We don't like this code, and we don't want you to use it." That would piss people off mightily, but it would be accurate.
We're not supposed to run Linus kernels anymore anyway. Hopefully the distros will just comment out this garbage.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper & GPLv3 Posted Oct 29, 2006 15:50 UTC (Sun) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] They're using their code to try to control what end-users do. I think you might be confusing things here. Every OS code on this planet, including the GNU Hurd OS, "controls" what end-users do: that is what code does to begin with. (For example: the Linux kernel does not allow the modification of kernel-space memory by user-space code.) The question here is purely implementational: what does the kernel code do by default? If you dont agree with the default behavior, and if you think the resulting work is still fine under the license, you can change the source code and redistribute the result. (Some raised the "how is this different from the GPLv3 situation" question and the answer to that is simple: the GPLv3 draft was claimed to limit what end-users can do via the license. I hope you will agree with me that there is a big difference between code-based limitations and license-based limitations.)
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper & GPLv3 Posted Oct 29, 2006 17:47 UTC (Sun) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] Oh for chrissake, you're splitting hairs.
The kernel devs were trying to make it difficult for you to run code they don't like. They've changed their minds subsequently, but they had decreed that ndiswrapper was Not Acceptable Code as written, and wrote a specific blockage of that code into the kernel. By name, even.
They were using, in other words, code to enforce a political viewpoint...and an INCORRECT political viewpoint at that, since ndiswrapper doesn't violate the GPL.
This is entirely different from code that controls behavior because of technical reasons, and you know that perfectly well. They were trying to limit end users from running *specific code*. They weren't saying "nobody can do X because it will break systems", they were saying "We don't like ndiswrapper and you can't use it anymore."
The fact that we can hack around their edict is irrelevant. We shouldn't have to.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 14:55 UTC (Thu) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] I agree that ndiswrapper is a problem in the long run (though I respectits authors for coming forth with a solution, even if I don't agree with it).
But I absolutely agree that it's un-GPL and un-free. Bringing the GPL
Kernel developers are often heard to say "We don't do licenses, we do
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 14:04 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link] "This is pure bullshit. The kernel devs are trying to restrict what end users do with their systems, which is as profoundly un-GPL and as un-free as you get. This kind of move is something you'd expect from Microsoft or Apple."
More accurately, some kernel devs are trying to restrict what developers do with their *un-patched code*. It is neither enforcing GPL nor un-GPL. The GPL license permits developers to modify the GPL'd kernel, but restricts the licensing and distribution of that modified code. GPL doesn't say that GPL'd code should be equally friendly to all usage. As a relevant point of interest, distributing together a kernel, an ndiswrapper, and the binary drivers that people want to use ndiswrapper with would be a GPL violation. Since that distribution isn't in question, what we are talking about is just a preference by the developers for making their unpatched code unfriendly to such usage (distributed or not). That is not surprising, but it is controversial because it hurts some users.
Is the policy good or bad? Tt comes down to weighing conflicting interests of some end users and some kernel developers. Also relevant is the technical question of how much work or difficulty is involved in making ndiswrapper work with the GPL SYMBOL stuff.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 14:43 UTC (Thu) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] Actually, after thinking about it, I'm not sure it would be illegal to distribute that way. A Windows driver isn't a derivative work of Linux, period.
If someone could get permission to distribute the drivers, I suspect it might be perfectly legal to distribute Linux (GPL), ndiswrapper (GPL), and Windows binary drivers (non-GPL, but not a derivative work.) I don't think a Windows driver could be considered a derivative work even if distributed this way. I could be wrong. This is at least a little gray, but it's certainly much less egregious than Tivoizing the code, which the kernel devs are perfectly happy with.
I don't think there's any way AT ALL that this can be painted as a GPL issue. It's just kernel devs being assholes, and using the GPL flag to do so.
They are abusing their users, and I would encourage distros to just disable the 'taint' code in their kernels. It's being misused.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 26, 2006 16:12 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]
There is a kind of argument that arises with GPL about what is a derived work and what is mere aggregation. Lots of people would argue that shipping the Windows binary drivers with ndiswrapper makes a derived work and not a mere aggregation, in which case that would be considered a GPL violation.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 30, 2006 23:21 UTC (Mon) by tbird20d (subscriber, #1901) [Link] Lots of people would argue that shipping the Windows binary drivers with ndiswrapper makes a derived work and not a mere aggregation,...Lot of people would be dead wrong. This idea that shipping two things on the same media somehow turns one of them into a derivative work of the other is asanine.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Nov 2, 2006 12:50 UTC (Thu) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link] First of all, let me say that IANAL, so you should disregard everything I wrote here - including this line. ^_~
I think the real question is why and how a driver was written. If a hardware vendor wanted to create a Linux driver for a product without GPL'ing it and still use GPL-only symbols, they could - from a technical perspective - create a GPL'ed wrapper module that doesn't really do anything other than providing a "GPL-proof buffer" between the kernel and the real driver.
However, that obviously would be piracy^Wcopyright infringement; the real driver would be a derived work of the Linux kernel.
The other "extreme" is what ndiswrapper is like: here, the "real" driver is not written with Linux in mind at all and was never supposed to run on or interface with Linux. Clearly, as you say, one cannot claim that such a driver would be a derived work of Linux, and I think - hope - that any lawyer making such a claim would be laughed out of court.
There is a gray area, too, of course. What if a company writes a driver for windows, and then *later on* decides to make it work on Linux as well by creating a wrapper module? I'd like to say that this isn't legal, but I'm not sure how one could argue that a piece of code that was already written a long time ago can retroactively become a derived work of something else (Linux, in this case). Things get even less clear when you consider updates to the (non-GPL'ed) driver: would a fix for a bug that only shows when the driver is used with Linux instead of windows make the driver a derived work of Linux, for example? I have no answer to this.
But that's not the kind of situation at hand, fortunately. As others have pointed out, the core of this dispute is not copyright: ndiswrapper does is licensed under the GPL and does not violate the copyright(s) of the Linux kernel developers.
The *real* question is whether the kernel developers have a moral right to do what they did - that is, whether it's acceptable to try to interfere with uses of a piece of free software (which it is in practice, even if it's not "officially" designated Free Software(tm)). I don't really have an answer to that, either, but given that the whole thing is mostly symbolic, anyway (it's trivial to change this again, and since ndiswrapper does not violate the GPL, distros can make this change without having to worry about violating copyright themselves), I would be happier if the kernel developers refrained from this kind of politics.
And politics it is: enforcing the GPL and insisting that contri- and distributors abide by it is laudable, and not caring about whether a change makes life more difficult for proprietary code etc. is certainly OK, too, but a change that *only* exists to do that and that does not have any other raison d'être... that's asinine.
And what's more, given the kernel developers' criticism of the GPL v3 and their insistence that as far as the kernel is concerned, only the GPL v2 matters, it's hypocritical, too; if the GPL v2 really was all that mattered, this change would not have been added to Linus' tree.
So even though I agree that proprietary modules are bad, and even though I have mixed feelings about ndiswrapper (on one hand, scratching itches is a good thing, but on the other hand, it's not good if band-aid prevents a real solution to a problem), I think that this change was a bad thing that should be reverted as soon as possible. Let's not get political.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Oct 27, 2006 4:19 UTC (Fri) by pimlott (guest, #1535) [Link] The kernel devs are trying to restrict what end users do with their systems, which is as profoundly un-GPL and as un-free as you get.They are not trying to restrict, they are trying to make less convenient. The FSF is well-known to do this as well. For example, it declines features in GCC to export and import the intermediate formats, so that end-users can't conveniently plug in proprietary front- and back-ends. It's not exactly the same technically, but the goal is the same: Reject hooks that could be used by proprietary software. Users can always add them themselves, so it is in no way a restriction of the FSF's freedoms. That said, the use of GPL-only symbols to enforce this is questionable and certainly confusing. GPL-only was supposed to express the intent that modules using them are derivative works. ndiswrapper acknowledges that it is a derivative, and its GPL license seems uncontrovercial since it simply implements a public interface with a variety of users.
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Nov 2, 2006 12:53 UTC (Thu) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link] But there is a difference between "we won't make it easier for you" and "we will make it more difficult for you on purpose". I can very much understand that the gcc folks aren't willing to spend time and energy on implementing features that essentially would be of use only (or mostly) to vendors of proprietary front-/back-ends, but they aren't going out of their way and spending and energy on implementing restrictions that make it even more difficult to do that and that don't serve any other purpose, either. (Or are they?)
GPL-only symbols and ndiswrapper Posted Nov 2, 2006 15:13 UTC (Thu) by pimlott (guest, #1535) [Link] Or are they?If our discussion were more timely, Joe Buck would answer. :-) I'm out of my authority here, but I think I've heard that there have been developers interested in implementing it, and that it was vetoed from the top.
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