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safety-critical systems can use ROMsafety-critical systems can use ROMPosted Oct 18, 2006 20:42 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544)In reply to: safety-critical systems can use ROM by RareCactus Parent article: FSF should separate GPLv3 changes (Linux.com)
I can't make sense of your scenario.
For one, I don't think any country sells telephones that don't work in other countries.
More to the point, the fact that it might be illegal for a company in whatever country to sell phones that broadcast outside of whatever range is not something that can be fixed by GPLv3.
If the company is required to lock down the frequency, they have to either put it in ROM, use DRM, or place a physical barrier (plastic casing or whatever) between the software container and the outside world. This is dictated by law, not by our licences.
GPLv3 says that DRM isn't an option, so the phone maker will have to go with ROM or a lump of plastic. The effects on phone buyers is the same.
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safety-critical systems can use ROM Posted Oct 18, 2006 21:41 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] GPLv3 says that DRM isn't an option, so the phone maker will have to go with ROM or a lump of plastic. The effects on phone buyers is the same....Until the phone buyer needs to upgrade the firmware on his handset. Maybe he wants a fix for a manufacturer defect, or for his phone to follow the new bluetooth standards, or just add a feature. Happens all the time. Yet, if the software is in ROM, the user is SOL. How can anybody possibly think that my freedom is increased by putting the software that I use into ROM instead of Flash? This just boggles the mind.
safety-critical systems can use ROM Posted Oct 18, 2006 22:53 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Putting a small portion of software in ROM and letting the rest be user-serviceable helps freedom. Having a device which can be upgraded by the manufacturer but not by you does not help freedom; the software might as well be burnt in ROM and we would not have the illusion of freedom. Sometimes small locks and visible bars help freedom.
No one uses ROM anymore, get over it already Posted Oct 19, 2006 1:59 UTC (Thu) by svkelley (guest, #37299) [Link] What people don't seem to understand is that no one uses ROM any more in embedded devices. It is all programmable flash. What is clear is that the people working on the GPLv3 draft really lack any knowledge of modern embedded systems and the components that make them up.
Sean
Not all flash is updateable Posted Oct 19, 2006 7:23 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] I would imagine that not all flash memory inside a device must be made user-serviceable. Even that it takes some effort to make it updateable from software. So, set the flash contents in the factory and just avoid upgrades on the field, and effectively you have a ROM, right?
Not all flash is updateable Posted Nov 2, 2006 17:27 UTC (Thu) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link] Not really. Both nor and nand flash are intrinsically read/write. You could wire up a flash chip with the write line tied down so it couldn't be used bu then there is a problem about how to get the code into the device in the first place. Myabe you could do it with JTAG, but normally you have use JTAG on the CPU which then used the write line to get data into the chip.
In theory you could put some content in the chip before soldering it down, but the whole production process is now set up assuming that you don't have to do this sort of thing any more (and we all save money because of it).
So the 'just put it in ROM' is not a trivial thing. It requires significant design and production changes, if it is possible at all.
safety-critical systems can use ROM Posted Oct 18, 2006 23:12 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] > GPLv3 says that DRM isn't an option, so the phone maker will have to go with ROM or a lump of plastic. The effects on phone buyers is the same.
I don't think it's the same. Manufacturers prefer options that are cheap, because consumers prefer to buy cheaper products. In a mass production scenario (and all "consumer" devices are such), the emphasis is low cost. Putting yet another protection mechanism in place increases the cost and complexity for the manufacturer, not to mention reduces flexibility with the ROM option. Instead, they can use this money to purchase proprietary software that doesn't have the "restrictions" that this hypothetical GPLv3 software has. And they get where they want to go with less hassle.
The other player here, of course, is the mobile phone (or other service type) company providing the service. They may be inclined to like manufacturers of "flexible" but "locked" phones better than the ones that need physical intervention in case something goes wrong. After all, the user has a contract that defines conditions of entry to the network. The "locked" software here provides a convenient way for the service provider to have an easy upgrade path (in case of errors in software, changed regulation, changed contract conditions etc.), while having reasonably difficult to "hack" technical measures in place against potential disruptions on the network by users modifying devices in order to go around contract conditions.
We need to understand that it's not going to be engineers making those decisions. It's going to be accountants. The end effect would most likely be that such software would not be used in such devices. Whether this is good or bad for FOSS remains to be seen.
safety-critical systems can use ROM Posted Oct 20, 2006 8:59 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] I don't think the numbers will square up. The cost of using a ROM chip, or of adding some tamper-proof seal, is probably few cents in a 100 euro phone. Whatever the cost is, I'm sure it's less than the point at which hardware manufacturers round out the figures. I don't know the marketing terms, but what I means is that if the phone plus a standard profit margin yields a price of 98 euro or 101 euro, the manufacturer will round those numbers up or down to 100 euro. I think the cost of using a ROM chip in mass production will be certainly less than 1 euro. Or whatever the cost is, it will be significantly less than having two computing systems in one - something that Motorolla find cost effective just to have a strong separation between modifiable and non-modifiable bits.
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