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Similar in spirit?Similar in spirit?Posted Oct 5, 2006 3:49 UTC (Thu) by AJWM (guest, #15888)In reply to: Similar in spirit? by Sombrio Parent article: Similar in spirit?
I hesitate to feed the obvious troll, but...
> A manufacturer has every right to incorporate any kind of technology into his device and offer it for sale, as long as it does not break any laws.
Certainly. And software developers have every right to refuse to allow their software to be used in such devices.
>[DRM users] as evil abusers of rights that you do not have
I have a right to purchase a copy of a work, hold on to it for 95 years (or whatever the current limit is), and then make free use of that work in any way I choose. DRM curtails that right.
I have a right to copy limited portions of a work still in copyright for use in a review or research. DRM curtails that right.
I have a right to privacy. Spyware embedded in a device sold for an entirely different purpose, which does not permit me to remove the spyware without damaging the device, curtails that right.
I have a right to the peaceable enjoyment of a system which I own. Certain DRM measures, such as the Sony rootkit, can and have curtailed that right.
These are all rights encoded in existing law, which (bad) DRM threatens.
Can you honestly defend Sony's rootkit malware as "NOT an abusive use of" technology or the general public? Didn't think so.
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Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 5:03 UTC (Thu) by Sombrio (guest, #26942) [Link] > I hesitate to feed the obvious troll, but...
Ok, this is just making me angry, and I have to disengage. I apologize for offending all of you to the point where I am now called names. I deny this charge, I am not a troll. I don't work for one of the companies all of you consider to be evil. I am not paid to annoy you. I simply disagree with you.
I certainly wish you all the best with your fight against DRM. Freedom is a great thing and you deserve the freedom to fight against your perceived evils.
I guess I need to go back to the fold of proprietary software developers. I do miss their professionalism and I think that I have just grown to the age where I can no longer relate to the ideals of the Free Software movement. You all just seem so radical to me now. I sure never thought I would join the establishment, but, they do have a whole lot more money, and I hear they are looking for evil coders. Now, where is that old Windows/CE manual.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 7:32 UTC (Thu) by k8to (subscriber, #15413) [Link] The initial statement was that locked-down systems can be a problem. Your hijack of this thread can be fairly described as trolling, by pulling it into a discussion of a particular type of locked-down system which is a hot-button toopic at the moment, and a particular set of issues and attitudes surrounding that type of locked-down system.
The debate about the issues surrounding DRM systems does have to occur in the open/free communities, but your narrow presentation and slicing don't help. You may not be a troll by intention, but you have achieved trolling by result.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 9:27 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] I'm impressed by the reasoning at the end: don't respond to the arguments, just complain about unfairness and say you're going to pick up your toys and go home.
If that's 'professionalism', I'll take the free software community. I prefer amateurs anyway: they have more enthusiasm (and more competence).
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 14:47 UTC (Thu) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] I think the corollary to Godwin's Law should be extended to include the use of the terms "FUD" and "troll", which never advance the discussion and are basically just uncivil...
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 22:46 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] So, what do you say to someone which is spreading FUD or is an obvious troll? Like this:Everyone I know does not believe in the DRM consipiracy theories either, so I am not alone.Ad populum. Or this: DRM is a problem manufactured by the FSFKill the messenger. Again in this: I for one, would like to know what percentage of people in the real world would consider DRM a problem.Ad populum again. Or even worse, this: There is nothing wrong with DRM.Blanket statement. And this? A manufacturer has every right to incorporate any kind of technology into his device and offer it for sale, as long as it does not break any laws.Excusation non petita, accusatio manifesta. Finally this: But, do not characterize legitimate, law abiding, job providing, and upstanding members of our society as evil abusers of rights that you do not have.Appeal to emotion. I'd say the message is a troll, even if the person is a cartesian thinker.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 6, 2006 1:56 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] If you think someone has raised an irrlevant argument, ignore it. Or explain why it's worthless. Or just say it's a worthless argument.
I just see way too many posts in way too many threads where "FUD" and "troll" are used to mean "You disagree with me." The particular example where it was applied to Sombrio felt to me like such an example.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 6, 2006 8:39 UTC (Fri) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link] Agreed. The dissection in the grandparent post, now *that* carries weight.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 14:36 UTC (Thu) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] If unfree is the mark of a true professional, I'll gladly call myself amere amateur for the rest of my life!
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 13, 2006 8:06 UTC (Fri) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link] In Germany, being "professional" has two meanings, which are actually the same - doing it for money. The second meaning therefore is "prostitute", they are doing "it" for money, not for love. And then, "amateur" is the right opposite, since that's a french word meaning "lover". Most prostitutes are actually enslaved in some way or another (and it seems to be that this is true for other professionals, as well, who are wage sclaves ;-).
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 14:35 UTC (Thu) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] A number of these complaints fail to distinguish between the copy you bought and your rights under copyright.
I have a right to purchase a copy of a work, hold on to it
No, it doesn't. At that point you are free to circumvent the DRM, because the work is no longer under copyright. Copyright does not require them to provide you with a copy when the copyright expires, it just bars you from making your own copy in the meantime.
"I have a right to copy limited portions of a work still in
Yes, you have a right to copy limited portions of a work. However, the copyright owner is NOT required to provide you with those portions. If you make a copy (say by videotaping a TV playback) to use in a review or research, that is not infringing. But there is nothing in the law that requires that you be able to copy such excerpts from a piece of licensed media that you own.
"I have a right to privacy. Spyware embedded in a device sold
Now that's a good argument. That's one to take to your representative and ask for legislation that specifically protects consumers against such reporting. It has, however, nothing specifically to do with DRM.
I think DRM makes content less desirable. People should object to it and push back on the content owners to not use it, just as consumers once successfully marginalized copy protection on software. I wouldn't mind seeing a mandatory licensing law that barred DRM and required payment of a small royalty on blank media, as consumers and device manufacturers also once successfully demanded. I would also love to see the DMCA repealed.
I just don't think the anti-DRM language in GPLv3 draft 2 will accomplish anything other than causing some amount of fracturing within the community.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 16:40 UTC (Thu) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] "Yes, you have a right to copy limited portions of a work. However, the copyright owner is NOT required to provide you with those portions."
That's not the problem. No one says the copyrightholder has to provide the specific portions. The problem is that the reviewer is not legally allowed to copy those portions. To break the DRM to copy them is illegal.
This DRM restriction is like saying it is legal to print anything you want but it is illegal to own a printing press or any other means of printing.
It may be legal to have a copy of something, but you have to break the DRM, and thus the DMCA law, in order to get that copy. That's what is wrong with DRM.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 19:38 UTC (Thu) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] My point is that fair use does not in any way imply that the author must allow you to make direct, perfect copies from a particular copy that you own. You do not have and never had such a right. That would be akin to saying "all copyrighted text must be printed in black on a white background, so that copying machines can make clean copies for fair use purposes."
All fair use says is "if I use a copy of a brief segment of the work in a review, the owner may not sue me". You have basically the same recourse for electronic video that you would have for photographic video - capturing the video as it is played back.
Fair use does not give you any special rights with respect to your physical copy of the work, it only gives you protection from claims of infringement with respect to the underlying work. Your right would be exactly the same if you did not own a copy of the work or if the work was not available for private purchase (say, a movie).
Fair use does not in any way require that there be a way for you to make a copy; it is just a defense to copyright infringement. If you think that it should (which sounds good to me), lobby for legislation to support that.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 23:00 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] I think I understood your point the first time, but the issue under discussion is completely different.Before, you had the right to copy certain things, and you could buy or build devices which did the copying. Today those copying devices are unlawful. Your intent doesn't matter; circumventing technical measures that protect copyrighted works is illegal, even if you do it to copy your own holiday pictures. Since DRM is based on those technical measures, you are screwed no matter what it protects. You don't have any recourse.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 6, 2006 2:08 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] I completely agree that it should not be illegal to circumvent technological protection measures. I would be ecstatic to see the DCMA repealed.
Your point about your holiday pictures is wrong. It is not illegal to circumvent if you have the copyright holder's permission. Presumably, for your holiday pictures, you are the copyright holder. [In fairness, I had the same belief until I looked at the law again today.]
DRM didn't take away any rights you had [though the DMCA did]. The copyright holder always had the right to make it difficult or impossible to make copies.
DRM does take away rights Posted Oct 6, 2006 4:45 UTC (Fri) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] If content is locked up under DRM by an encryption key, and that key disappears, the content is lost forever.
Even if the key is not lost, if it is not available for someone who merely wants to exercise fair use rights, it effectively bans fair use. This destroys the balance of granting copyright for a limited time in exchange for fair use.
The average person should not have to jump thru hoops to exercise fair use rights. DRM requires that, even if the DMCA were to be repealed.
DRM does take away rights Posted Oct 6, 2006 13:27 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] Sorry, I stand by what I said. "Fair use" is a defense to infringement, it is not a requirement that the copyright holder enable you to get or make copies.
If you think it should be (I wouldn't necessarily disagree), then you need to get the Act modified.
DRM does take away rights Posted Oct 12, 2006 16:54 UTC (Thu) by quintesse (subscriber, #14569) [Link] Saying the Fair Use is only some kind of excuse to allow infringement is showing a lack of respect for the intelligence of the people that actually penned down the act.
You have to remember that in those days the right you had as an auther either did not exist or followed the english model (IIRC) where the protection was absolute and for eternity.
It was recognized that neither was really any good because if you have no protection what incentive do you have in doing any original work? Somebody can just copy it 5 minutes after you put it on sale. But the other way around didn't work either because it stifled cultural and scientific progress.
So that's when they thought that a time-limited protection would be a good idea, I think it was only something like 7 years in the beginning? The idea being that in those years you could make enough money of your work but also recognizing that the term shouldn't be too long because again, what would be the incentive to make new work if you could live the rest of your live of a couple of good works? (In those days there was still a strong feeling that you actually had to work for a living)
But 7 years can still be a long time if you talk about scientific discoveries or about new important cultural developments. So in their wisdom they included, exactly, "Fair Use". With Fair Use you couldn't copy wholesale for publication or claim a work for your own but you could copy parts of it _for_publication_. You see, I'm not even talking about the possibility that you were able to extract part of the work, but you were even allowed to use it in your own works! That was considered to be a _very_ important part of the Copyright Act and can not be seen seperate from it or as being "tacked on" somehow.
In the end the Copyright Act was never about the authors, but about society: how to keep authors producing while preventing them from having a monopoly on their works and thereby depriving the society as a whole from learing and profiting from it.
But DRM is threatening to change all that. If you say that the Copyright Act says nothing about copyright holders being obliged to allow Fair Use you are exactly right, but you also have to remember that until now it was never _impossible_ to use your Fair Use rights given to you by the Copyright Act. And these protections are ever lasting as well, who is to say that in 90 years we're actually able to "crack" the DRM? Would we even be allowed to? Who knows existing work will still use the same DRM so it might still be illegal to crack the DRM because it would make existing work vulerable as well.
So yes, the best thing to do if you want to keep the spirit of the Copyright Act is to change it to include some limitations on what copyright holders can do in their crusade to prevent piracy. But with the kind of power the media companies have nowadays it's going to be a tough battle.
DRM does take away rights Posted Oct 13, 2006 6:54 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] With respect, I think you just said, at rather greater length, the same thing I had said - if you think there should be an additional right to access to make fair-use copies, then you need to work to change the Act.
Circumvention Posted Oct 6, 2006 6:50 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] It is not illegal to circumvent if you have the copyright holder's permission.IANAL, but paragraph 1201 says that No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.Then there are exceptions for certain classes of copyrighted works (as published by the Librarian of Congress) and uninfringing uses. I'd say it is illegal. Then it says that No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that [...] is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.This means that you cannot even get the circumvention from someone else; this time the Librarian has nothing to say. DRM didn't take away any rights you had [though the DMCA did].DRM is bad enough without DMCA, its evilness only tempered by the fact that it is probably doomed to fail. Combined with the DMCA, it is positively evil. Right now the DMCA is in effect (and we have a similar law in Europe); when it is repealed this argument may not be valid, but until then it looks like it is illegal to circumvent even for your own holiday pictures.
Circumvention Posted Oct 6, 2006 13:25 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] Yes, but you're missing the definition of "circumvention" in (a) (1) (3): "to descamble, to decrypt ... without the authority of the copyright owner". So, if you have the copyright owner's permission, it isn't circumvention [so, I misworded my statement, too].
Circumvention Posted Oct 6, 2006 13:34 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] For circumvention to be illegal, it is enough that there is one work under valid copyright, not necessarily the one you want to access. Suppose you try to crack Microsoft's DRM scheme to gain access to: some outdated tunes from the 20's, a few excerpts for an academic study, or your own music. Since the "effective technological measure" also "controls access to a work protected under this title", you cannot circumvent it or even get a means to circumvent it from a third party.
Circumvention Posted Oct 6, 2006 17:10 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] Yes, if you had your own content protected by the same DRM as other content, then it would be illegal to circumvent that protection. It's not necessarily a bizarre scenario, either, but one I would recommend avoiding.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 18:40 UTC (Thu) by AJWM (guest, #15888) [Link] >> "I have a right to privacy. Spyware embedded in a device sold>> for an entirely different purpose, which does not permit me >> to remove the spyware without damaging the device, curtails >> that right."
> Now that's a good argument. That's one to take to your representative and ask for legislation that specifically protects consumers against such reporting. It has, however, nothing specifically to do with DRM.
In the TiVo case, it does. Tivo's argument for locking down the box is that the content industries are demanding it, so that one can't use the Tivo for anything but time shifting (explicitly allowed under the Betamax decision). Hence, a DRM measure. That lockdown also conveniently prevents users from disabling the piece that records your recording/viewing habits and occasionally phones home with them.
In other words, the manufacturer is using DRM as a convenient excuse for preventing the disabling of spyware.
Similar in spirit? Posted Oct 5, 2006 19:51 UTC (Thu) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] This whole discussion has thoroughly muddied the distinction between DRM (content protection) and Trusted Computing (control over what software runs on the device). My statement maintained that distinction. DRM has nothing to do with spyware or with whether you can replace your software. The technologies used for DRM and TC are sometimes related, but it makes no sense to conflate them. They are both technologies that restrict users' freedom in return for certain benefits.
DRM sometimes (but not always) relies on some kind of TC mechanism to make sure that the software accessing the content is trusted. In other cases the DRM and content acces are bundled in a separate module so that the controlling software is unable to access the decoded content, in which case no TC is needed.
It's reasonable to expect that as hardware with built-in TC is commoditized, use of TC to simplify DRM implementations will become more common.
Note, however, that situations such as you describe (where "spyware" is in the trusted software) are typically service situations, where your contractual relationship with a service provider probably dictates that that software be used, anyway. [Not that there aren't exceptions.]
Most Tivo devotees say that the device's ability to track and predict their use is the primary reason for preferring a Tivo to a generic DVR. What you consider "spyware" is a critical product feature to them. Don't like it? Buy a different device.
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