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Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista
Lauren Weinstein has sent a message to his
Privacy Forum on the anti-piracy mechanisms which, it seems, will be
built into Microsoft Vista. Free software looks more appealing all the
time. "In particular, Vista will include technologies that can be
used by MS to drastically reduce the functionality of systems that they
believe to be pirated. This restricted environment will give users a choice
between running Windows in its very limited 'Safe Mode' (apparently with
networking disabled), or alternatively running a Web browser that will exit
automatically after each hour or so of usage."
(Log in to post comments)
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 4, 2006 17:25 UTC (Wed) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] It seems that a migration from XP to Vista will have the potential be at least as disruptive as a move from XP to Linux. This should be interesting to watch. And it will arrive just in time for new year's predictions, for people who are given to that sort of thing. :-)
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 5, 2006 22:23 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] It seems that with the beta versions of Vista for 64bit they are having very difficult troubles with driver compatability and application binary compatability.
Maybe these are solvable problems, maybe not.
It's funny sometimes. You hear about Microsoft's famous ability to have all this application and driver compatability. That older hardware works fine and newer hardware works fine while with Linux either can be a pain sometimes.
But I realy think a lot of it is simply due to the fact that Microsoft has had the same operating system for 5 years. And before that Windows 2000 is nearly the same. The equivelent in the Linux world would probably mean that we would all be using be Debian Woody (which we'll assume only supports x86) and waiting on Ubuntu/XGL/Compiz to come out.
When you look at something like Windows XP vs Windows 2003.. A lot of drivers don't work between the two things. Especially application compatability is very poor for 2003 by Microsoft's standards.
The bad thing is that I am now realising that even with Vista's problems it's still going to be very difficult.
I suggest that anybody curious head down to "hey, lets keep it REAL, man" Microsofts techy relations website. http://channel9.msdn.com/
I've found very interesting things about Vista and how their kernel works and everything. Things like the how main archetecturers are fighting dependancy issues with internal registry issues and stuff like that. It's funny to see top MS programmers badmouthing the registry a bit.
Now this Dave Probert is very interesting I think. He came from a Unix background and starts off explaining different concepts in Unix a bit and how that translates or is different then what they do in the Windows Kernel.
It's obvious pretty quick that the NT kernel is a monster. It's amazing the amount of work they have to put into it to make something that is closed source as flexible as possible.
Of course the media format is horrendous, but that is just how things go.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 4, 2006 17:26 UTC (Wed) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link] These days the only time I ever need Windows is to test web sites in IE,so the browser-only mode would beat worrying about licensing.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 5, 2006 0:57 UTC (Thu) by EmbeddedLinuxGuy (guest, #35019) [Link] These days the only time I ever need Windows is to test web sites in IETry IEs4Linux + Wine; works great for me on IE5/5.5/6.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 4, 2006 17:27 UTC (Wed) by jwb (subscriber, #15467) [Link] I have two Dell Precision Workstations at my office. These are the kind that Dell prices upwards of $4500. They have umpteen holographic Microsoft stickers on the sides of their cases. About two months ago, Microsoft Windows Genuine Advantage decided that our copies of Windows are "not genuine". I thought this would be no problems, since our MSDN subscription (tens of thousands of dollars per year) and our company-wide global license and support contract (hundreds of thousands of dollars) entitle us to install Windows XP on however many computers we happen to own. So I generate a licence key and feed it to WGA. It won't accept that key. Microsoft says I should reinstall from official Windows CDs, but in point of fact Windows XP can't be installed on these Dells due to driver issues. Only the Dell system restore CDs can bootstrap the system.
It's amazing to me that there hasn't been a bigger uproar about this issue. Microsoft needs to resolve dozens of defects in Windows and WGA before they start thinking about remotely disabling other people's computers.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 4, 2006 17:54 UTC (Wed) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link] Even more disturbing is the trend: First MS pushes patches out automatically. Then MS starts spying on you (WGA). Then MS starts annoying you (WGA notifications). Now MS starts interferring with you.
At what point are they going to release a Windows install that makes your computer into an MS drone, that they can use for whatever purpose they want? I realize that this may be technically possible in the current EULA but MS can't get away with it yet. But it's only a matter of degrees now.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 4, 2006 20:10 UTC (Wed) by i3839 (subscriber, #31386) [Link] If I were some spy organisation I'd put several backdoors in place by now, either with the help of MS or with spy developers. Gives a warm and fuzzy feeling, having control over millions of PCs.
Done Posted Oct 6, 2006 8:28 UTC (Fri) by NZheretic (guest, #409) [Link] Rep. Curt Weldon:But the point is that when John Hamre briefed me, and gave me the three key points of this change, there are a lot of unanswered questions. He assured me that in discussions that he had had with people like Bill Gates and Gerstner from IBM that there would be, kind of a, I don't know whether it's a, unstated ability to get access to systems if we needed it. Now, I want to know if that is part of the policy, or is that just something that we are being assured of, that needs to be spoke. Because, if there is some kind of a tacit understanding, I would like to know what it is.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 5, 2006 10:36 UTC (Thu) by rvfh (subscriber, #31018) [Link] And as usual, the internet is full of work arounds for those who really are pirating Windows. Always the good guys that pay the price with this stuff...
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 4, 2006 18:03 UTC (Wed) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link] While Vista is "traditional" proprietary software in the PC environment, would similar trouble cause problems for the user in set-top boxes like TVIO which uses DRM to lock in certain binaries, which may be GPL'd?
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 4, 2006 20:22 UTC (Wed) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] Yes, it would.
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 4, 2006 20:42 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link] especially if it was implemented as incompentently as microsoft has done.
the big problems with what microsoft is doing isnt _what_ they are trying to do (shut down illegal copies), it's the fact that they can't competently identify if a given copy is illegal or not, and so they have a huge false-positive rate, causing significant problems for users.
personally I hope that they get their act togeather and fix this. I would like nothing better then for microsoft to perfectly identify every illegal copy of their software. when everyone has to buy legitimate copies they will see the real cost and look for alturnatives.
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 4, 2006 22:39 UTC (Wed) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] Given a choice between encouraging people to run Linux or having people run pirated versions of Vista Microsoft will choose to have them running the pirated version every single time.
In fact I think that piracy is one of the major reasons propriatory software is so successfull today.. Sure have the boss get licenses for Photoshop when you at work, but what percentage of people who use it at work also buy it to use it at home.. or do they just pirate it? (40%? 30?)
Could you imagine the following Gimp would get if all of a sudden photoshop was made impossible to 'steal'?
Microsoft will step up their anti-piracy stuff to be sure, but I don't beleive for one second that they will allow it to be more difficult to pirate Vista then it is for people to drop Windows and all their familar applications and move to Linux.
Remember Windows XP and the activation sceme that was suppose to be more foolproof? I remember people bitching and moaning about it and promising to refuse to run XP if MS did that. Then MS released corporate edition that did none of that. So those guys all shut up and downloaded corporate edition instead of reinstalling Windows 98.
There will definately be relatively innocious ways to work around these restrictions.
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 5, 2006 1:30 UTC (Thu) by midg3t (subscriber, #30998) [Link] > Could you imagine the following Gimp would get if all of a sudden photoshop> was made impossible to 'steal'?
Please don't use "steal" in the sense of software piracy. There's no deprivation involved.
> Stealing is theft. Theft is legally defined as “the unauthorized taking or
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 5, 2006 11:24 UTC (Thu) by copsewood (subscriber, #199) [Link] Please don't use the word "piracy" with reference to copyright infringement. Piracy is armed robbery on the high seas. Copyright law was never originally intended either to prevent manual copying or to prevent one off mechanical copying - it was intended to prevent commercial-scale mechanical copying only, and those most interested in software freedom have an interest in keeping copyright in this original moral context and opposing the concept from being extended to areas outside that context.
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 5, 2006 15:38 UTC (Thu) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] Please don't use the word "piracy" with reference to copyright infringement.Too late -- the expression is already in widespread use. Convincing a small number of people not to use it will have negligible effect.
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 5, 2006 22:34 UTC (Thu) by kbob (subscriber, #1770) [Link] Yes, that would be as silly as trying to convince the world that "free software" means something other than "software you don't pay for".
kbob
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 6, 2006 0:19 UTC (Fri) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] Which is why we use the term "open source" instead, right? ;-)
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 5, 2006 19:17 UTC (Thu) by edgewood (subscriber, #1123) [Link] See those quote marks around "steal"? Those are called scare quotes, and indicate irony or disagreement on the part of the writer. If you're going to be one of those terminology pedants, trolling threads to "correct" (see, there they are again!) people's use of language, you should at least be able to recognize when someone already agrees with you.
Use of "steal" for unlicensed copying Posted Oct 6, 2006 22:05 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (subscriber, #1954) [Link] In at least some of the cases, copying software without permission deprives the copyright owner of the money you would otherwise have paid for it.Adobe and Microsoft go to some effort -- probably more than you -- to understand the market for their products, and have apparently reached the conclusion that a significant number of people avoid paying for software by making unlicensed copies. Otherwise, these publishers would not just tolerate, but actively encourage free use of Photoshop and Windows at home, for the reasons mentioned in this thread. I know the industry understands this because lots of publishers do that sort of thing, particularly with students.
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 5, 2006 9:13 UTC (Thu) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link] > Remember Windows XP and the activation sceme> that was suppose to be more foolproof?
Do I? It's what finally pushed me over the edge to Linux. Great for me
So not /everyone/ that threatened to jump decided not to.
BTW, I was reading yesterday that MS screwed up WGA, for some of its big
Duncan
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 8, 2006 15:26 UTC (Sun) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link] "" the big problems with what microsoft is doing isnt _what_ they are trying to do (shut down illegal copies), it's the fact that they can't competently identify if a given copy is illegal or not, and so they have a huge false-positive rate, causing significant problems for users. ""
Control... its about control, not shutting down illegal copies of OSes or media!
"" I would like nothing better then for microsoft to perfectly identify every illegal copy of their software ""
Yes they will try that. But control means they are targeting a way for "when and *who*"... a pin point system. Illegal copies has always been an ally to MS, because shutting down users that potenially will never buy an official MS license is a bad control policy and may target a flush to OSes of the competition.
Entreprises are not an issue because almost all of them have licences... but having a pin point system that can cause automatic upgrades trouble for any particular shop that has Linux deployments in the network, fits 100% with M$ past tactics!
That is!... would you replace 10 windows desktops or a Linux server ?
comparison with situation with DRM'd hardware Posted Oct 4, 2006 21:40 UTC (Wed) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] Well, "it shouldn't".
There's no obvious reason why a Tivo would do this kind of checking, since the provider can always just reinstall a new copy of the device's software.
Microsoft is not worried about the validity of the software, they're worried about the validity of the license. Embedded devics typically want to make sure that the software they're executing is the right version, which is a much simpler check to make and less prone to false positives.
So, I don't think this particular issue is relevant to the DRM discussion.
I do, however, think Microsoft is giving FLOSS a huge opportunity with the desktop public, though it may also be that they simply know that public's willingness to accept Microsoft-induced pain better than we do.
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 5, 2006 0:31 UTC (Thu) by juriise (subscriber, #38305) [Link] It seems clear now that Microsoft has used the recent years toimplement a flexible and cryptograhically strong deactivation system for their software, and they also have the ability to adjust it to their liking with a deployment latency of a couple of weeks worldwide.
The question is now how they want to exploit that business
It must be clear to Microsoft itself as it is to me and
And as we saw in this article, there is also gradually
When the switchoffs start, they will carefully consider the
So my predictions: The effect on the customer base will be
Weinstein: automatic hobbling mechanisms in Vista Posted Oct 5, 2006 15:34 UTC (Thu) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] So my predictions: The effect on the customer base will be mostly negative, even for the least intrusive deactivations.I think you're probably right about this. I expect that user frustration -- and the resulting ill will toward Microsoft -- will be significant. I don't think there will be a rush to buy new licenses, most people have more than they need anyway, I think most people will just stick with the ones they have.I don't think there will be a rush, but I think many people will be suprised to find that they don't have a valid license after all. And defections, the most important for us, yes, I think that there will be some small number of defections for each turn of the screw, and I think it will be very frustrating for Microsoft to watch the result of their experiments.Agreed. Especially the fact that the lost customers will not come back.Of this I am sure!
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