GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version [LWN.net]

GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version

Posted Oct 3, 2006 16:02 UTC (Tue) by mingo (subscriber, #31122)
In reply to: GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version by cventers
Parent article: Busy busy busybox

you need to remember that you guys aren't the only software project out there.

Oh absolutely! Two quick points:

Firstly, we "kernel guys" (which includes some exceptions, the kernel developer community is not homogenous regarding this topic - as it is rarely homogenous on any other topic to begin with ;-) are the nearest to the hardware (almost by definition), so we will be amongst the first ones who will feel the bad effects of the GPLv3 limiting hardware design. The FSF justification for the DRM language sounds nice and fine, i'd like the DVD monopoly to go away just as any other free software developer, but i also realize that:

- embedded manufacturers are /forced/ to use DRM most of the time by external factors (such as licensors of DVDs, licensors of pay-per-view content that people want, or licensors of GPS maps), so when they are faced the choice of removing DRM or removing Linux, they'll remove Linux. There's just no way we can win in this scenario, and the result is less freedom. Needless to say, i'm not happy about that angle.

- even accepting that we need to do something about DRM (and i dont think we /can/ do anything meaningful about DRM - hence we shouldnt even try, due to the clear danger of collateral damage) the FSF chose an awful solution to solve the DRM problem: they now propose to control works created independently of GPL-ed code (such as hardware), by creatively including portions of those works (certain "keys") in the definition of "Source Code", and thus forcing the release of such keys (or the ceasing of the use of such keys) when GPL-ed code is distributed together with that independent creative work (the hardware).

This sets a bad precedent because the GPLv2 never did this - the GPLv2 was very clear that our work is ours and your work is yours (as long as it's not based on our work). Trying to use distribution related legal powers to affect independent works is worthy of SCO and the MPAA, not of the free software community. It is also a material deviation from the spirit of the GPLv2. I find such a deviation from spirit and morals far more dangerous than any damage DRM could do to us.

Secondly, i believe most of the non-kernel free software projects are watching this from an armchair so to speak, without being directly involved in the issues around hardware.

While the current GPLv3 changes are mostly directed at the kernel (for example the Tivo bootloader checks the signature of the kernel it loads - not of userspace programs), but non-kernel projects could be affected by future versions of the GPL, come GPLv4 - and the precedent of compromising on the spirits of the GPLv2 and removing freedoms has already been done in the GPLv3, so it might be too late for you to object at the time of the GPLv4.

For example, would you be content with the GPLv4 requiring that only GPL-licensed code be distributed on a piece of hardware? As per the logic articulated in connection to the proposed GPLv3 changes, such extra restrictions of distribution freedoms are possible.

So if you see anyone suggest that we kernel developers are out there to compromise on freedoms it's the opposite: we are objecting against the GPLv3 restricting certain freedoms, and we are also objecting against certain measures on the grounds that the damage caused by those measures will be far larger than the supposed benefits they bring. Remember: if unfixed, the GPLv3 does not remove or impact DRM in any way, but it very much removes some of our freedoms!

Plus, i personally like some parts of the GPLv3: for example the patent language (but i also like the more robust formulation in other areas). So it's not all bad, but right now it's more bad than good in our opinion. That was expressed in the vote of the top kernel contributors too.

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Please participate, for real!

Posted Oct 3, 2006 18:12 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link]

Ingo,

I'm not sure I agree with you about what power we actually have over DRM.
Now would be a good time for me to point out that I sympathize with Linus
when he feels like the FSF was trying to co-opt Linux into the DRM fight.
I don't for a second believe that FSF would try and do that maliciously -
that is to say they would be happy to have Linux cooperation but I doubt
they'd try to get it with a hammer. (And indeed, Linux is GPLv2, and will
likely stay that way.)

The anti-DRM provision has really two aims. One is to keep free software
from being co-opted into devices and locked in such a way as to make it
unfree. And you're right when you say that the kernel is right up against
the metal and would feel the effects of this first. That's one of the
things I was pointing to in my last message - there's a certain class of
software that will really feel the effects of the anti-DRM provision
today.

To explain then why I think differently, I think that when Eben Moglen
says that the free software community has something the hardware
manufacturers need, he's right. Now, a big part of that 'thing' is Linux,
but as I said there is a lot more software out there. And as I said I'm
sure the FSF and perhaps some others would love to see Linus bring his
mighty muscles into the ring, but having spent a few years in LKML I dubt
Linus would :P.

Proprietary forms of production are beaten. And I know this is probably a
contentious point, and we could spend all day arguing it, but I'm really
not trying to tell you that you're wrong about GPLv3, even though I have
a different opinion. One of the things that always made the free software
revolution so special was that people could vote with their code. Merely
by doing what we love - doing what we do best - we can move solar
systems. And so for myself, and I believe many others who do support
GPLv3, it breaks down into:

1. We don't want to see our code abused and artificially locked up
2. We think we're becoming important enough that the time might be right
to flex a little muscle.

I say these things in the midst of developing a project (trying to get a
first alpha done) that is the sort of thing that might end up on an
embedded device. If no manufacturer ever embeds it, hey, that's okay - I
think its real value is mostly elsewhere anyway. If it does get embedded,
and no manufacturer tries to lock DRM on it since it runs in user-space,
great. In this case, the anti-DRM provision wasn't needed. But if it does
get embedded, and a manufacturer does lock DRM on it, clearly against my
wishes, I have legal recourse to make them stop.

And you know, I'm not even sure that manufacturers in 2006 want to lock
DRM onto projects like mine because they're not being forced to at
gunpoint. But it's about closing a loophole too. RMS has made some pretty
important predictions in the past (patents, etc) that have come true. And
so if RMS says "DRM is going to be a problem," and we look around in our
own neighborhood and see hardware manufacturers competing over who can
make the more stringent DRM, you've got to bet we're listening.

So I suspect that you disagree with me, perhaps on some factual grounds
(me saying proprietary software is dead) and perhaps on some opinionated
ones as well. When Linus said no GPLv3 for Linux some time ago, I was
disappointed. But I have nothing more than a small semantics fix patch in
mainline and a small bugfix in -ck. And I think both of those things even
came after Linus said "no GPLv3". So even if I'm disappointed, I'm not
delusional. I know that my only say would be the say of a user, which in
our community is far less important than the say of a real developer.

The reason I replied to you is over the same reason that I got pretty
frustrated with Linus recently. I know we don't agree on the GPLv3, but
that doesn't stop some of us from wanting it. And it seemed like Linus
was out in the press being dishonest about the FSF's drafting process and
intentions. Whether or not he was trying to damage the FSF or its
reputation is beside the point; it's red hot fire we don't need. We think
we have a right to have our GPLv3, and if Linus and LKML don't like it,
that's totally okay. (Let me point out that I'm not trying to paint you
with the same brush here, I'm responding to you because you seemed pretty
upset about the fact we're even moving forward with the license.)

So we're talking about GPLv3 in context of the Busybox maintainer
quitting. That's a sad event. But doesn't this just go to illustrate that
the more irrationally crazed we all get over these license debates, the
more damage we will see and the more pain we will feel?

> Please stop this licensing madness before it's not too late! We have
> already wasted too much time and effort on this, and the new license
> has not even been released. At the sight of this self-destruction of a
> once powerful community Microsoft must be laughing all the way to the
> bank.

If you don't like GPLv3, please say so. But please do so in a way that is
fair to all the participants, and in a way that doesn't cause more
trauma.

I'll say one more thing. Eben has re-invited the participation of kernel
developers in the licensing discussion. I think there's still another
discussion draft due before the final license in January. You have a real
concern about this anti-DRM provision, but right now the two communities
have just been lobbing press releases at each other. It would be very
much appreciated not only by the FSF, but by me personally and I'm sure a
lot of other people if you and some of the other developers would accept
Eben's invitation, and if you would ask your colleagues to join you. This
'licensing madness' will not stop if that's all you think of it, but if
some kernel people start to plug in to the process rather than just
yelling about it from afar (which damages your credibility in some
people's eyes, by the way) we might see some careful alterations to the
anti-DRM provision that would at least make you _less_ worried. Are you
willing to do that?

Please participate, for real!

Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:40 UTC (Tue) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link]

I completely agree that the kernel developers should post their thoughts on the comments site. However, I'm not sure I see a fundamental difference between lobbing press releases and lobbing comments. If there were a discussion in the comments process, I might feel differently, but since the most we can do is post comments that go into a back-room drafting committee, I'm not sure what the real difference is.

Please participate, for real!

Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:59 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link]

I can't speak for Eben but it sounds to me like what the FSF was hoping
for (and what I and others hope happens too) is that concerned kernel
developers will contact them directly so as to open a line of
communication on the kernel developer's terms. The comment website is
designed to allow anyone off the street to walk up and provide useful
input; this was done to lower the barrier to entry and because it would
probably be prohibitively difficult to involve _everyone_ on a deeper
level.

Obviously, the kernel developers represent a body of very important GPL
code and so it's important that the FSF gets the chance to talk to some
of them directly.

So what do you say Ingo? Might we be able to con you and some of your
partners into opening up a chat with the dialogue directly with the FSF?