Licence text and fabs [LWN.net]

Licence text and fabs

Posted Oct 3, 2006 14:13 UTC (Tue) by mingo (subscriber, #31122)
In reply to: Licence text and fabs by stevenj
Parent article: Busy busy busybox

The only problem comes if the manufacturer wants the ability to modify the software while denying this ability to users.

So how does this differ from the situation of old-fashioned ROMs that contain GPL-ed code? Do you get an EEPROM burner with every toaster that includes a ROM? Do you get free training to be able to use that burner? If the write pins of the ROM were burned out, but it's still easily replaceable by the manufacturer, do you get free ROM chips to replace them with? If the ROM is in a disposable cartridge that has some weird physical form factor, do you get free access to the cartridge manufacturing process, to be able to "modify" the ROM and produce new cartridges?

You dont, and it would be unreasonable to require that in a free software license. And the same is true for a "virtual ROM", which is easily upgradeable for the manufacturer but hard to upgrade for others.

What this new language in the GPLv3 does is what the GPL never did and never purported to do: it limits the ability of end users to use GPL-ed code. Yes, hardware makers are end users too, and the new GPLv3 language limits their end-use. This sets a far more dangerous precedent than any supposed dangers of the harder-to-tweak nature of the Tivo brings with itself. It shows to new contributors that our prior words cannot be trusted. The GPLv2 clearly says: end use is not limited in any way, shape or form. Now the GPLv3 tries to limit the ways in how hardware makers can use our binaries. That is an unacceptable change of the bargain to me. I dont care how inconvenient the Tivo is to us, we have no moral grounds to limit end-users. This was clear in the GPLv2.

In what way will you change the bargain next time around? Ask for samples of free hardware perhaps to make modification easier? Ask for specs and training and access to personell to make modification more convenient? Or, to make it really convenient for all of us, do you plan on asking for money in exchange of them being able to use all this wonderful free software? It would of course be "similar in spirit" to previous versions of the GPL, because without money to live how can anyone do the modifications to begin with? The 4 freedoms would be toothless if developers werent reimbursed for their efforts, right?

And no GPLv3-proponent so far was willing to answer this simple point: where is the moral line? Now that the GPLv3 starts limiting end-use, where will that limitation stop?

And as i said it before: there will always be freeloaders that only use our works and dont give back. /We cannot force them to give back/. Still the community and our users are giving back /a lot more/ than what the text of the license requires - because what drives this whole thing is not your paranoia to punish freeloaders, but the basic mechanism of getting modified source code back. Your vendetta against DRM will only turn away new contributors (and old contributors) alike. It already caused real damage within the community. (read the article you are commenting on.)

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Licence text and fabs

Posted Oct 3, 2006 18:57 UTC (Tue) by walken (subscriber, #7089) [Link]

> Yes, hardware makers are end users too

No they are not - not under any common definition of "end user".

Someone who's a distributor is not an end user - the product does not *end* up there, it gets *distributed* instead.

I'm sorry but you're twisting words again.

Licence text and fabs

Posted Oct 4, 2006 2:40 UTC (Wed) by sanjoy (subscriber, #5026) [Link]

the GPLv3 tries to limit the ways in how hardware makers can use our binaries. That is an unacceptable change of the bargain to me.

It might unacceptable if it were such a limit. However, there is not, despite many claims to the contrary. Use, in common parlance and in copyright law, means running the program. Under the GPLv3, hardware makers may freely run the program for any purpose. For example, they may and probably do run it to test whether it recognizes all the hardware or does not crash when given random input. They may even find solutions to any crashes, modify the program, and run the modified version (so long as they don't violate the patent-retaliation clause). There is no restriction on use.

Recipients of such hardware are also free to use (run) the program, as they do every time they turn on the device. No restriction on use there either. The only restriction is on distribution, which copyleft licenses by definition restrict. If the manufacturer distributes the program, perhaps embedded in a device, the manufacturer must give you the source code so that you can modify it; and under the GPLv3 the source code also includes the manufacturer's magic key so that you can install your modification. This requirement is a restriction on distribution: "You may distribute provided that you do XYZ." It is not a use restriction.

In what way will you change the bargain next time around?

This question is based on the incorrect premise that the bargain changed. With the GPLv3 as with the GPLv2: You may use the software for whatever purpose you want, modify it even, but if you distribute it (perhaps modified), you must give others the same rights.

--Sanjoy Mahajan

Licence text and fabs

Posted Oct 6, 2006 21:51 UTC (Fri) by petetron (guest, #8495) [Link]

You are being obtuse. In the case of something like Tivo, the company can push new software updates to the device over the internet without the consent of the user. As another example, if a device is tied to a particular service, the company could compel the user to upgrade the firmware by making the service incompatible with older versions. In either case where GPL software is involved, the user should have the choice as to whether to accept the new version of the software, and if not, to still be able to use the hardware they BOUGHT and PAID FOR in the way they see fit (by patching the GPL'd code). That requires being able to change the source code.

If you distribute GPL software in ROM, you still need to distribute the source code. That's just as much the case with the GPLv2 now as it would be with GPLv3. However, unless the company sends men in black to your house to replace the ROM chip in the dead of night, with ROM there simply doesn't exist the same ability to force unwelcome upgrades on your device. That's a key difference and why your argument about EEPROM is absurd.

What this new language in the GPLv3 does is what the GPL never did and never purported to do: it limits the ability of end users to use GPL-ed code.

What are you talking about? In the most literal sense, requiring people redistribute source code is a limitation on their rights to keep their modifications to the code hidden. But it is through this mechanism that the essential goal of the GPL is asserted, which is that software which is placed under the GPL remains free to be used, modified and redistributed by anyone.

And as i said it before: there will always be freeloaders that only use our works and dont give back. /We cannot force them to give back/.

But we can force them to give it back, that is where copyright and contract law comes into play enforcing the text of the GPL. It is evident that you completely misunderstand the legal and social contracts that the GPL is built on. Perhaps you read the BSD license and are just confused?