GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version [LWN.net]

GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version

Posted Oct 2, 2006 19:40 UTC (Mon) by cventers (subscriber, #31465)
In reply to: GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version by mingo
Parent article: Busy busy busybox

Ingo,

I'll start off as some others have and say that I have a lot of respect
for your work. So I hope you don't hate me after I tell you why you are
wrong. :)

There are those of us that identify with "Free Software" over "Open
Source". We're the kind of people that would do something like watch RMS
speak or donate to the FSF.

As awesome as the Linux kernel is - fantastically portable, capable and
scalable, and as smart as the kernel community is (when I think of 'very
smart developer' your name is one of the ones that pops into my head),
you need to remember that you guys aren't the only software project out
there.

When Linus announced that Linux would not convert to GPLv3, there was
some disappointment and confusion over why. That's natural, to be
expected, and totally okay. As I've said before, I have no stake in
whether or not Linux uses GPLv3. And I think that most of the rest of our
community will cease caring about the license issue as it pertains to
Linux if the kernel developers wouldn't make so much noise about it. The
only case I can see concern bubbling back up in the future _for the
kernel_ would be if the kernel suffered a disaster that would have been
preventable under v3. We could debate whether or not it is possible that
this could ever happen, but that's beside the point.

I hear you that you are concerned about the power that the FSF wields
over code out in the world. But I ask you to consider that there are
people out there who are free software supporters that _want_ the GPLv3
to continue as it has been. If the FSF instead made "Really Free GPL", a
different license, the upgradeability clause many existing projects
deliberately use would be useless, and projects that wanted GPLv3 might
not be able to have it for the same reason that Linux would have legal
trouble moving forward.

The trouble with many of the attacks I've seen on RMS and the FSF is that
they presume that everyone else on Earth agrees, as if RMS is on some
diabolical power trip and is ignoring the world and using some kind of
power he shouldn't have to force us to all do his bidding. I'm sorry, but
RMS is not alone in thinking the anti-DRM provisions are an absolute
necessity. And I'm not talking about something we think would be nice.
It's not the "free music foundation". The issue is _only_ emphasized in
the license because in a world where electronic devices are more and more
a part of our lives, slowly displacing (to some extent) the general
purpose personal computer, our ability to _control_ our lives through
hacking will be diminished if we don't stand up for it.

And the really big, important point here is that RMS can't force anyone
to use his license. In fact, the most vocal community - the kernel
developers - are the one group who will be clearly unaffected by it. In
this latest discussion, there was talk about "voting with your code". Do
that! Your code is a very strong vote for that matter because you're damn
good at what you do.

Although I respect your concern about the moral question I don't share
it. Did it really take 16 years for everyone to figure out that the GPL
is a free software license, especially when the PREAMBLE section at the
very top of the license starts off talking about the freedom to modify -
the freedom that the new anti-DRM provisions are designed to defend?

I agree with you that the concern of some GPL users should be addressed.
But even the disagreement of a very vocal, large project using the
license (that technically can't use the new one anyway) should not
prohibit the rest of us from having the free software license we always
wanted and built for. I get that there are a number of people upset with
the FSF and the GPLv3 that would prefer the process not go on - most
certainly, not with the anti-DRM provisions. And this is really where I
get frustrated. I want to vote with my code! I want to vote for anti-DRM
provisions. I know that any patches I submit to Linux aren't going to be
votes for anti-DRM and that is fine with me, but when I do an independent
work I expect the right to choose a strong free software license. And
since that's what the GPL has always been - a free software license - it
is _wrong_ of others to tell us what we can't do with our license,
especially when they have the very natural right of not using it!

So why does the "or any later version" thing really worry you?

1. Joe can take my code and distribute it under the GPLv3, and I don't
agree with the anti-DRM restriction!

- Why does this matter? This doesn't stop you from (a) changing your
license to GPLv2 only or (b) continuing to distribute as v2 or later. Joe
is not creating any extra permissions, and the only extra restriction he
is creating is saying "don't use technical means to circumvent the
license". If you don't think the license is the right place to address
that, or you don't see it as a problem, you're perfectly free to continue
providing manufacturers with code they're free to slap crypto chips on.

2. Joe can take my code, modify it, release the mods only under GPLv3,
and then I can't merge his changes back!

- Joe is voting with his code!

Is there really any serious contention over this license other than that
anti-DRM clause? Because there really aren't many other feature
modifications I've heard people this upset about. If you go from saying
"I don't want to use GPLv3" to "This GPLv3 is wrong and must be stopped",
isn't that a bit of an over-reaction?

I share your concerns that we're going to suffer some pain over this
license. But I want to emphasize that it's not the GPLv3's fault that the
Busybox maintainer quit. That's about _people over-reacting_. The more
FUD that flies around about GPLv3 the more everyone's nerves are going to
get jumpy and the more pain we're all going to feel. And this is
absolutely over-reacting - the freaking license hasn't even been released
yet, and there's still another discussion draft coming! If someone forks
or quits over it now, that is totally absurd!

But you know, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw one or more code forks
over which version of the license to use. But you know what, I don't
expect to see many because the contentious anti-DRM clause really only
matters today for a certain class of software (say, an operating system
kernel or system utility set). And I think that if we could all stop
yelling at each other, or leaving stink-bombs in the press, people
wouldn't be so fanatical as to fork over something like an anti-DRM
provision. After all, most of us don't like our code to be used in this
way (Linus being a notable exception), it's just that some don't think
the license is the right place to stop it.

And if some projects fork, tough! People who fork are voting with their
code.

(Log in to post comments)

GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version

Posted Oct 3, 2006 16:02 UTC (Tue) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link]

you need to remember that you guys aren't the only software project out there.

Oh absolutely! Two quick points:

Firstly, we "kernel guys" (which includes some exceptions, the kernel developer community is not homogenous regarding this topic - as it is rarely homogenous on any other topic to begin with ;-) are the nearest to the hardware (almost by definition), so we will be amongst the first ones who will feel the bad effects of the GPLv3 limiting hardware design. The FSF justification for the DRM language sounds nice and fine, i'd like the DVD monopoly to go away just as any other free software developer, but i also realize that:

- embedded manufacturers are /forced/ to use DRM most of the time by external factors (such as licensors of DVDs, licensors of pay-per-view content that people want, or licensors of GPS maps), so when they are faced the choice of removing DRM or removing Linux, they'll remove Linux. There's just no way we can win in this scenario, and the result is less freedom. Needless to say, i'm not happy about that angle.

- even accepting that we need to do something about DRM (and i dont think we /can/ do anything meaningful about DRM - hence we shouldnt even try, due to the clear danger of collateral damage) the FSF chose an awful solution to solve the DRM problem: they now propose to control works created independently of GPL-ed code (such as hardware), by creatively including portions of those works (certain "keys") in the definition of "Source Code", and thus forcing the release of such keys (or the ceasing of the use of such keys) when GPL-ed code is distributed together with that independent creative work (the hardware).

This sets a bad precedent because the GPLv2 never did this - the GPLv2 was very clear that our work is ours and your work is yours (as long as it's not based on our work). Trying to use distribution related legal powers to affect independent works is worthy of SCO and the MPAA, not of the free software community. It is also a material deviation from the spirit of the GPLv2. I find such a deviation from spirit and morals far more dangerous than any damage DRM could do to us.

Secondly, i believe most of the non-kernel free software projects are watching this from an armchair so to speak, without being directly involved in the issues around hardware.

While the current GPLv3 changes are mostly directed at the kernel (for example the Tivo bootloader checks the signature of the kernel it loads - not of userspace programs), but non-kernel projects could be affected by future versions of the GPL, come GPLv4 - and the precedent of compromising on the spirits of the GPLv2 and removing freedoms has already been done in the GPLv3, so it might be too late for you to object at the time of the GPLv4.

For example, would you be content with the GPLv4 requiring that only GPL-licensed code be distributed on a piece of hardware? As per the logic articulated in connection to the proposed GPLv3 changes, such extra restrictions of distribution freedoms are possible.

So if you see anyone suggest that we kernel developers are out there to compromise on freedoms it's the opposite: we are objecting against the GPLv3 restricting certain freedoms, and we are also objecting against certain measures on the grounds that the damage caused by those measures will be far larger than the supposed benefits they bring. Remember: if unfixed, the GPLv3 does not remove or impact DRM in any way, but it very much removes some of our freedoms!

Plus, i personally like some parts of the GPLv3: for example the patent language (but i also like the more robust formulation in other areas). So it's not all bad, but right now it's more bad than good in our opinion. That was expressed in the vote of the top kernel contributors too.

Please participate, for real!

Posted Oct 3, 2006 18:12 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link]

Ingo,

I'm not sure I agree with you about what power we actually have over DRM.
Now would be a good time for me to point out that I sympathize with Linus
when he feels like the FSF was trying to co-opt Linux into the DRM fight.
I don't for a second believe that FSF would try and do that maliciously -
that is to say they would be happy to have Linux cooperation but I doubt
they'd try to get it with a hammer. (And indeed, Linux is GPLv2, and will
likely stay that way.)

The anti-DRM provision has really two aims. One is to keep free software
from being co-opted into devices and locked in such a way as to make it
unfree. And you're right when you say that the kernel is right up against
the metal and would feel the effects of this first. That's one of the
things I was pointing to in my last message - there's a certain class of
software that will really feel the effects of the anti-DRM provision
today.

To explain then why I think differently, I think that when Eben Moglen
says that the free software community has something the hardware
manufacturers need, he's right. Now, a big part of that 'thing' is Linux,
but as I said there is a lot more software out there. And as I said I'm
sure the FSF and perhaps some others would love to see Linus bring his
mighty muscles into the ring, but having spent a few years in LKML I dubt
Linus would :P.

Proprietary forms of production are beaten. And I know this is probably a
contentious point, and we could spend all day arguing it, but I'm really
not trying to tell you that you're wrong about GPLv3, even though I have
a different opinion. One of the things that always made the free software
revolution so special was that people could vote with their code. Merely
by doing what we love - doing what we do best - we can move solar
systems. And so for myself, and I believe many others who do support
GPLv3, it breaks down into:

1. We don't want to see our code abused and artificially locked up
2. We think we're becoming important enough that the time might be right
to flex a little muscle.

I say these things in the midst of developing a project (trying to get a
first alpha done) that is the sort of thing that might end up on an
embedded device. If no manufacturer ever embeds it, hey, that's okay - I
think its real value is mostly elsewhere anyway. If it does get embedded,
and no manufacturer tries to lock DRM on it since it runs in user-space,
great. In this case, the anti-DRM provision wasn't needed. But if it does
get embedded, and a manufacturer does lock DRM on it, clearly against my
wishes, I have legal recourse to make them stop.

And you know, I'm not even sure that manufacturers in 2006 want to lock
DRM onto projects like mine because they're not being forced to at
gunpoint. But it's about closing a loophole too. RMS has made some pretty
important predictions in the past (patents, etc) that have come true. And
so if RMS says "DRM is going to be a problem," and we look around in our
own neighborhood and see hardware manufacturers competing over who can
make the more stringent DRM, you've got to bet we're listening.

So I suspect that you disagree with me, perhaps on some factual grounds
(me saying proprietary software is dead) and perhaps on some opinionated
ones as well. When Linus said no GPLv3 for Linux some time ago, I was
disappointed. But I have nothing more than a small semantics fix patch in
mainline and a small bugfix in -ck. And I think both of those things even
came after Linus said "no GPLv3". So even if I'm disappointed, I'm not
delusional. I know that my only say would be the say of a user, which in
our community is far less important than the say of a real developer.

The reason I replied to you is over the same reason that I got pretty
frustrated with Linus recently. I know we don't agree on the GPLv3, but
that doesn't stop some of us from wanting it. And it seemed like Linus
was out in the press being dishonest about the FSF's drafting process and
intentions. Whether or not he was trying to damage the FSF or its
reputation is beside the point; it's red hot fire we don't need. We think
we have a right to have our GPLv3, and if Linus and LKML don't like it,
that's totally okay. (Let me point out that I'm not trying to paint you
with the same brush here, I'm responding to you because you seemed pretty
upset about the fact we're even moving forward with the license.)

So we're talking about GPLv3 in context of the Busybox maintainer
quitting. That's a sad event. But doesn't this just go to illustrate that
the more irrationally crazed we all get over these license debates, the
more damage we will see and the more pain we will feel?

> Please stop this licensing madness before it's not too late! We have
> already wasted too much time and effort on this, and the new license
> has not even been released. At the sight of this self-destruction of a
> once powerful community Microsoft must be laughing all the way to the
> bank.

If you don't like GPLv3, please say so. But please do so in a way that is
fair to all the participants, and in a way that doesn't cause more
trauma.

I'll say one more thing. Eben has re-invited the participation of kernel
developers in the licensing discussion. I think there's still another
discussion draft due before the final license in January. You have a real
concern about this anti-DRM provision, but right now the two communities
have just been lobbing press releases at each other. It would be very
much appreciated not only by the FSF, but by me personally and I'm sure a
lot of other people if you and some of the other developers would accept
Eben's invitation, and if you would ask your colleagues to join you. This
'licensing madness' will not stop if that's all you think of it, but if
some kernel people start to plug in to the process rather than just
yelling about it from afar (which damages your credibility in some
people's eyes, by the way) we might see some careful alterations to the
anti-DRM provision that would at least make you _less_ worried. Are you
willing to do that?

Please participate, for real!

Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:40 UTC (Tue) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link]

I completely agree that the kernel developers should post their thoughts on the comments site. However, I'm not sure I see a fundamental difference between lobbing press releases and lobbing comments. If there were a discussion in the comments process, I might feel differently, but since the most we can do is post comments that go into a back-room drafting committee, I'm not sure what the real difference is.

Please participate, for real!

Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:59 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link]

I can't speak for Eben but it sounds to me like what the FSF was hoping
for (and what I and others hope happens too) is that concerned kernel
developers will contact them directly so as to open a line of
communication on the kernel developer's terms. The comment website is
designed to allow anyone off the street to walk up and provide useful
input; this was done to lower the barrier to entry and because it would
probably be prohibitively difficult to involve _everyone_ on a deeper
level.

Obviously, the kernel developers represent a body of very important GPL
code and so it's important that the FSF gets the chance to talk to some
of them directly.

So what do you say Ingo? Might we be able to con you and some of your
partners into opening up a chat with the dialogue directly with the FSF?

Keys and hardware

Posted Oct 3, 2006 18:39 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Ingo, just a(nother) fine point.

[...] they now propose to control works created independently of GPL-ed code (such as hardware), by creatively including portions of those works (certain "keys") in the definition of "Source Code".

How come the cryptographic keys are now part of the hardware? Is your key part of your house? Part of your door, or even part of your lock? A crypto key is just a number; it is a necessary piece of the algorithm to install the software onto the hardware, true, but the same is true of any ./configure scripts. Are they part of the hardware too?