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Linux follows an open decision process, and you can fork it if you dont like itLinux follows an open decision process, and you can fork it if you dont like itPosted Oct 2, 2006 13:15 UTC (Mon) by mingo (subscriber, #31122)In reply to: Linux follows an open decision process, and you can fork it if you dont like it by dmantione Parent article: Busy busy busybox
Let me show how to make your own GPL: your example is inapposite, it does not reply to the issue that i raised. See the highlighted portion of my sentence you replied to (and which you did not quote in your reply): Now where can i fork the GPL 'next version' decision process and create the next version of the GPL myself, without the huge barrier of having to write 350 million lines of code from scratch or having to convince all the authors that they accept my license and relicense to it? (where the former is probably easier than the latter) your suggestion to 'fork' the GPL will only fork the 340 lines of the license text itself! It does not 'fork' the 350+ million lines of codebase that is tied to the current GPL version. (That bond is either via trust or via laziness - both of which brings with itself moral responsibilities.) my suggested solution to fork Linux will fork the whole thing, all ~7 million lines of it. All currently active developers could go over to the fork in a matter of a single day, if they wanted to. There are no barriers whatsoever to do this - and it's being done quite frequently, sometimes to prove Linus wrong. Of course i never suggested it should be possible for a single person to fork the GPL license, together with the whole codebase. That would be insane. In fact, what i suggest is that it is so insane that no-one, not even RMS himself should have the legal power to unilaterally and in essence retroactively change the practical meaning of hundreds of thousands of contributions! It is a very simple point that no-one from the FSF side was willing to confront heads-on so far. Perhaps because the thought is uncomfortable to them and the moral implications are so clear? Perhaps because giving up power and "letting the community go" its own way is so hard to do?
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GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 13:28 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Again, since the option of choosing GPLv2 or any later version lies on you, the recipient of my gracefully licensed code, it is you who makes the decision, not Stallman.I don't think it is such a big deal. Don't like v3, then stay with v2.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 14:04 UTC (Mon) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] Again, since the option of choosing GPLv2 or any later version lies on you, the recipient of my gracefully licensed code, it is you who makes the decision, not Stallman. I think you are again skipping the fundamental moral question. (I dont think you are doing that intentionally, so please dont take this as an attack of any sort.) Yes, of course the contributor decided under which license the code was released. He might even have left the "or later version" and the "similar in spirit" language in the COPYING file for one of the following factors: - fully intentionally, understanding all the legal and moral implications of that decision and leaving the power to change the license with the president of the FSF, or - due to misunderstanding the goals of the GPL and the legal implications of the license, not being a lawyer himself, or - due to laziness, because legaleese is boring stuff when we can do some real coding. So my question is: does your position reduce to: "You made your decision when you released the code, now deal with the consequences. The president of the FSF has the legal power to do things with your contributions you possibly never thought of before - it's really your fault you did not read the legal fineprint and let it happen!"? Or do you agree with me that the president of the FSF is in a unique legal position (and has the unprecedented legal power) to change the license affecting the contribution dynamics of 350 million lines of code instantly? Do you agree with me that such huge power brings with itself a minimal moral obligation to at least /understand/ and adopt to the position of the community that created that codebase, instead of trying to advance his own moral position? Or if that adoption is not possible, to voluntarily give up his unique legal powers (which powers are contrary to the philosophy of free software itself) and remove the "or later version" language from the license and let people only pick a specific version of the GPL, hoping that people would consciously pick up his new version of the license for new contributions?
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 15:48 UTC (Mon) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] I understand your point, and agree with it to a certain extent. But let us turn this around: is it your contention, then, that because some developers did not fully grok the intent and ideals of RMS and the FSF when they licensed their code, that now RMS and the FSF should be permanently enjoined from pursuing their goals as they see them? That they should just pack it in and go home because their hard work and unwavering belief and advocacy (for little reward and often in the face of ridicule) for over twenty years has been misunderstood by a vocal subset of the community?
The idea that RMS and the FSF should subordinate themselves to the "will of the community" is such an obvious non-starter that I can't believe it's being seriously discussed. They are where they are today, and the GPL is where it is today, precisely BECAUSE they had a moral vision to which they steadfastly held, and they did not allow that vision to be diluted by people arguing for practicality or appeasement. You may not agree with them: many don't. But to the extent that ANYONE is surprised or dismayed by the fact that they are not allowing some kind of ultra-democratic "vote for your favourite clause" in the GPLv3, they are being naive IMO. Although the FSF wants to make the best license they can, and so they are soliciting input from every side, there was never any possibility that the GPLv3 would contain any language which did not align precisely with the vision of the FSF... how could it be otherwise?
The fact that some didn't understand that vision or where it might lead in the future is quite understandable. But saying that because of this, the FSF has some sort of obligation to abandon its principles and vision seems unfair... and, frankly, given what I know of the people involved, it will never, ever happen.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 19:40 UTC (Mon) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] Ingo,
I'll start off as some others have and say that I have a lot of respect
There are those of us that identify with "Free Software" over "Open
As awesome as the Linux kernel is - fantastically portable, capable and
When Linus announced that Linux would not convert to GPLv3, there was
I hear you that you are concerned about the power that the FSF wields
The trouble with many of the attacks I've seen on RMS and the FSF is that
And the really big, important point here is that RMS can't force anyone
Although I respect your concern about the moral question I don't share
I agree with you that the concern of some GPL users should be addressed.
So why does the "or any later version" thing really worry you?
1. Joe can take my code and distribute it under the GPLv3, and I don't
- Why does this matter? This doesn't stop you from (a) changing your
2. Joe can take my code, modify it, release the mods only under GPLv3,
- Joe is voting with his code!
Is there really any serious contention over this license other than that
I share your concerns that we're going to suffer some pain over this
But you know, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw one or more code forks
And if some projects fork, tough! People who fork are voting with their
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 7:23 UTC (Tue) by jimi (guest, #6655) [Link] This is exactly how I feel. If anything, the FSF is giving both the developers and the end users more choices and doing their absolute best to protect freedom - freedom for both the developers, hardware manufacturers, and users. If some copyright holder feels that the GPLv3 is wrong, then simply remove the language permitting any later version. This is not hard or even reproachable. My little GPLed project will be licensed under the new version.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 16:02 UTC (Tue) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] you need to remember that you guys aren't the only software project out there. Oh absolutely! Two quick points: Firstly, we "kernel guys" (which includes some exceptions, the kernel developer community is not homogenous regarding this topic - as it is rarely homogenous on any other topic to begin with ;-) are the nearest to the hardware (almost by definition), so we will be amongst the first ones who will feel the bad effects of the GPLv3 limiting hardware design. The FSF justification for the DRM language sounds nice and fine, i'd like the DVD monopoly to go away just as any other free software developer, but i also realize that: - embedded manufacturers are /forced/ to use DRM most of the time by external factors (such as licensors of DVDs, licensors of pay-per-view content that people want, or licensors of GPS maps), so when they are faced the choice of removing DRM or removing Linux, they'll remove Linux. There's just no way we can win in this scenario, and the result is less freedom. Needless to say, i'm not happy about that angle. - even accepting that we need to do something about DRM (and i dont think we /can/ do anything meaningful about DRM - hence we shouldnt even try, due to the clear danger of collateral damage) the FSF chose an awful solution to solve the DRM problem: they now propose to control works created independently of GPL-ed code (such as hardware), by creatively including portions of those works (certain "keys") in the definition of "Source Code", and thus forcing the release of such keys (or the ceasing of the use of such keys) when GPL-ed code is distributed together with that independent creative work (the hardware). This sets a bad precedent because the GPLv2 never did this - the GPLv2 was very clear that our work is ours and your work is yours (as long as it's not based on our work). Trying to use distribution related legal powers to affect independent works is worthy of SCO and the MPAA, not of the free software community. It is also a material deviation from the spirit of the GPLv2. I find such a deviation from spirit and morals far more dangerous than any damage DRM could do to us. Secondly, i believe most of the non-kernel free software projects are watching this from an armchair so to speak, without being directly involved in the issues around hardware. While the current GPLv3 changes are mostly directed at the kernel (for example the Tivo bootloader checks the signature of the kernel it loads - not of userspace programs), but non-kernel projects could be affected by future versions of the GPL, come GPLv4 - and the precedent of compromising on the spirits of the GPLv2 and removing freedoms has already been done in the GPLv3, so it might be too late for you to object at the time of the GPLv4. For example, would you be content with the GPLv4 requiring that only GPL-licensed code be distributed on a piece of hardware? As per the logic articulated in connection to the proposed GPLv3 changes, such extra restrictions of distribution freedoms are possible. So if you see anyone suggest that we kernel developers are out there to compromise on freedoms it's the opposite: we are objecting against the GPLv3 restricting certain freedoms, and we are also objecting against certain measures on the grounds that the damage caused by those measures will be far larger than the supposed benefits they bring. Remember: if unfixed, the GPLv3 does not remove or impact DRM in any way, but it very much removes some of our freedoms! Plus, i personally like some parts of the GPLv3: for example the patent language (but i also like the more robust formulation in other areas). So it's not all bad, but right now it's more bad than good in our opinion. That was expressed in the vote of the top kernel contributors too.
Please participate, for real! Posted Oct 3, 2006 18:12 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] Ingo,
I'm not sure I agree with you about what power we actually have over DRM.
The anti-DRM provision has really two aims. One is to keep free software
To explain then why I think differently, I think that when Eben Moglen
Proprietary forms of production are beaten. And I know this is probably a
1. We don't want to see our code abused and artificially locked up
I say these things in the midst of developing a project (trying to get a
And you know, I'm not even sure that manufacturers in 2006 want to lock
So I suspect that you disagree with me, perhaps on some factual grounds
The reason I replied to you is over the same reason that I got pretty
So we're talking about GPLv3 in context of the Busybox maintainer
> Please stop this licensing madness before it's not too late! We have
If you don't like GPLv3, please say so. But please do so in a way that is
I'll say one more thing. Eben has re-invited the participation of kernel
Please participate, for real! Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:40 UTC (Tue) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] I completely agree that the kernel developers should post their thoughts on the comments site. However, I'm not sure I see a fundamental difference between lobbing press releases and lobbing comments. If there were a discussion in the comments process, I might feel differently, but since the most we can do is post comments that go into a back-room drafting committee, I'm not sure what the real difference is.
Please participate, for real! Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:59 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] I can't speak for Eben but it sounds to me like what the FSF was hopingfor (and what I and others hope happens too) is that concerned kernel developers will contact them directly so as to open a line of communication on the kernel developer's terms. The comment website is designed to allow anyone off the street to walk up and provide useful input; this was done to lower the barrier to entry and because it would probably be prohibitively difficult to involve _everyone_ on a deeper level.
Obviously, the kernel developers represent a body of very important GPL
So what do you say Ingo? Might we be able to con you and some of your
Keys and hardware Posted Oct 3, 2006 18:39 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Ingo, just a(nother) fine point.[...] they now propose to control works created independently of GPL-ed code (such as hardware), by creatively including portions of those works (certain "keys") in the definition of "Source Code".How come the cryptographic keys are now part of the hardware? Is your key part of your house? Part of your door, or even part of your lock? A crypto key is just a number; it is a necessary piece of the algorithm to install the software onto the hardware, true, but the same is true of any ./configure scripts. Are they part of the hardware too?
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 21:02 UTC (Mon) by alonso (subscriber, #2828) [Link] Hi Ingo, I agree with you on the moral obligation of FSF. I think that in the end GPLv3 will be irrelevant, in fact it can be relevant only if linux will be licenced under it... of course in my opinion. But that said, I really don't see the reason to allow DRM infected device to use Linux. I see no difference from source+DRM from binary only. Ok you have the source you can modify it, but you never have the ability to use the modified kernel on you device. But of course THEY have it. Why are kernel developer supporting this kind of use of their work?If in the end all device will be equipped with DRM you will have a lot of source to use like toilet paper :)
Thank you for you hard work!
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 21:26 UTC (Mon) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] Hi Ingo, I agree with you on the moral obligation of FSF. I think that in the end GPLv3 will be irrelevant, in fact it can be relevant only if linux will be licenced under it... of course in my opinion. I'm a bit more pessimistic, but hey. My worry is that the pure "inertia of laziness" that infests all of us developers will just cause the blind copying of "GPLv3 or later" COPYING files and will gradually increase the pressure on "GPLv2 or later" projects to go "GPLv3 or later" too. And i fear we might lose many good contributors along the way, once they feel their moral trust has been abused. They'll just be disgusted by the constant flaming and bickering and will leave. Just count the number of times GPLv3 proponents called Linus' arguments "FUD" (without bothering to actually argue point by point), to get a feel of the times to come. I see no difference from source+DRM from binary only. Ok you have the source you can modify it, but you never have the ability to use the modified kernel on your device. Here i'm a bit more optimistic than you :-) Just watch current market trends, where is DRM used or where will it be used? Only in limited spaces where there's content that people are crazy about and that the content owners want to protect: DVDs, HD-DVDs, Xbox, PS3. (It shows up on desktop CPUs too, but in its little isolated corner, not affecting the generic programmability of the hardware. Good enough to play HD-DVD, but not annoying enough to disable Linux.) Note what they are not trying to do: they are not trying to do DRM-ed Linux hardware designs where people are interested in Linux content. And the reason is simple: DRM is expensive and cumbersome, for everyone involved, hardware maker, software developer and user alike. And that wont change, no matter how much legislative power Hollywood has. Hardware makers are very much aware of this and they are resisting DRM in every place where Hollywood's content does not matter. (and they are able to do this because where Hollywood's content does not matter there Hollywood has no licensing power. Hollywood has yet to amend the Constitution.) Furthermore, there is not much we can do, because Tivo exiting the PVR market is precisely in the line of Microsoft's and Hollywood's intent! They want small players like Tivo to exit the market, very much. So by disabling Tivo we /help/ Microsoft and Hollywood. (again, the reason of that situation is that people dont want the Linux in Tivo, but Hollywood's content) So the solution: stop worrying about the Tivo and about the Xbox. You might see DRM in desktop hardware too, but it will be in its own corner and wont really affect Linux. Rather work on making more people want Linux. Work on replacing Hollywood's content by contributing to the Creative Commons project. And the path to the hearts of minds of people isnt via adding stupid key restrictions to the license that does nothing but annoys hardware makers who are trying to adapt Linux, but by building technology and content that people want.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 22:41 UTC (Mon) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] > And the reason is simple: DRM is expensive and cumbersome, for everyone> involved, hardware maker, software developer and user alike. And that > wont change, no matter how much legislative power Hollywood has.
Unfortunately as soon as Hollywood legislative power makes DRM mandatory for classes of devices manufacturer opposition will vanish. Because this will promote DRM from "cumbersone feature" the no-name chinese competitor does not bother with to "expensive feature" the customer is forced to buy.
The legislator does have the power to remove competition, and competition is the only reason companies can not thrive on ill-advised features and products. You don't hear hardware companies complaining in countries which tax DVDs or hard drives. They don't care as long as their competitors are treated the same way. Because if it's the case they can safely pass the costs on customers.
Actually Hardware/software companies would love a DRMed world - it would offer all sorts of forced obsolescence "opportunities".
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 0:03 UTC (Tue) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] Unfortunately as soon as Hollywood legislative power makes DRM mandatory for classes of devices manufacturer opposition will vanish. So your solution: exclude all of Linux from those markets? Now how will that solve the problem?? The real solution is this: allow people to actually use DRM where mandated by either the industry, by laws or by convenience, because allowing Linux in such scenarios fights the content monopolies by giving people a bridge into free content. Also work on free content and eventually enable a new class of devices that need no DRM, because they only play free content! If we are any good, those devices will emerge, and Hollywood has yet to amend the Constitution to forbid such devices. (DMCA-alike laws only operate on hardware devices because the content industry's content is used on those devices.) If we are not good enough to create free content, then nothing we put into the license will prevent Linux from failing in those markets. The DRM provisions will just accelerate that failure. But if we are good at creating free content then allowing people to bridge from the closed world into the free world helps us and them. The DRM provisions of the GPLv3 will only make it harder. If we are unlucky they might even tip the balance from "slow success" into "slow failure".
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 6:42 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] Clear legal opposition to DRMs by a large GPLv3 codebase is actually a pretty good way to stop or limit the scope of DRM laws (go read the transcripts of pre DMCA/EUCD discussions they're enlightening)
Once DRM laws are enacted worldwide and win some years of legitimacy expecting to create free devices is illusory. Hollywood knows pretty well their laws will only stand if no open devices can compete with DRMed ones. They are doing all they can (and mostly succeeding BTW since people like you let them lobby alone) so DRMed is made mandatory not on hardware that manipulates their content but on hardware that *may* manipulate their content. Which happens to cover all content devices (and more), since they can always argue there is no technical difference between free content and pirated drmed content.
I don't see any manufacturer doing anything but blanket DRM once DRM is mandatory, since DRM smart enough to distinguish between closed and open content would be
You can make great code by pooling the free time efforts of many individuals worldwide, you can not make great hardware without someone owning an expensive factory somewhere.
Expensive factories are a lawsuit target.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 9, 2006 14:48 UTC (Mon) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] If they don't use Linux, so what? Does Tivo give you anything?
Some customers are bad. Some market share is share you don't want. What benefit is there for you in having DRM-locked Linux kernels on the market? From this perspective, it looks like they just stole your code and locked everyone out of their device. They're bad customers, market share that costs more than it's worth. For a few more share points, you trade away your freedom to fully use any device that uses your code.
The GPL code base gets bigger every year, and harder to compete with. Success is absolutely inevitable, if you are willing to be patient enough. At some point, the base of GPL code will be so enormous and so *good* that it will be economic suicide to try to compete with it. That may take another generation, maybe two. But eventually, there will simply not be room for closed licenses on mainstream products anymore.
The problem is that you're not thinking big enough. If you think in a multigenerational timeframe, the Linux kernel is not *that* critical. Code can be replaced, but lost freedoms are damnably hard to get back. Changing the GPL to suit any one project, even one as large and important in the present day as Linux, will have unpleasant ripple effects for decades.
It appears that you want the project you've put your whole life into to be wildly successful. And maybe you were never one who particularly cared about this particular issue... maybe it's okay, from your perspective, for someone to sell you a device running your own code that you're not allowed to change. Or maybe you're willing to overlook that if it means your project becomes dominant in the marketplace.
But for the FSF, whose goal is software freedom, not the success of any particular project, it would be very foolish to do what what you want. Their goal is freedom for generations; yours appears to be success over the next few years.
I wish you both well, but IMO, the FSF's goal is important to the entire world, where yours is important primarily only to Linux kernel devs.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 12, 2006 3:26 UTC (Thu) by dlang (✭ supporter ✭, #313) [Link] tivo gave us their code (it turns out that not much of it is wanted, but that's not a requirement)
as a result tivo boxes are extremely hackable, once you jump through the initial hoops to defeat the encryption
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 12, 2006 8:04 UTC (Thu) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] Right, but with Trusted Computing, you will not be able to do that anymore. If the kernel isn't signed with Tivo's private key, it won't run on that hardware, period.
Is it okay if they put chains on stuff if you know how to break them? What happens when you don't know how to break them anymore? You can go from A to B almost overnight, and if you don't have any legal protections in place, don't you think they've stolen your code?
It strikes me that just the ATTEMPT to steal your code, even though they may not succeed, is highly noxious, and something to be prevented.
Think of the DRM provisions in GPL3 as a life preserver. The real things are a little awkward to wear on a boat, and make your day a little less fun. But if you need one, you REALLY need one, and you'd better have put it on ahead of time.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 13, 2006 2:13 UTC (Fri) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] You describe it as "stealing" when a manufacturer uses your code in a device, but doesn't give you the right to modify it in the device. How is that any more "stealing" than, for instance, using it inside a company, embedding it in a device you can't afford or just don't want, or putting it in a device in ROM so that it can't be modified?
If you choose to consider it unfair, that's a choice that I think you should be free to make, but it's no more "stealing" than unauthorized copying of content is "stealing" or "piracy".
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 13, 2006 19:21 UTC (Fri) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] Of course I describe it as stealing. The whole point of copyleft/GPLv2 is that the original author of the code maintains full rights, but gives up some of those rights voluntarily. In exchange, all other users of the code cannot reserve more rights for themselves than people they give it to.
That's really it. That's the contract. If you write Neato Program A, and kindly give it away under the GPL, I can build on that and make it into Neato Program B. But I can't distribute it in such a way that my downstream users can't add on to make it Neato Program C. And none of us can distribute it in such a way that YOU can't take our changes, incorporate all of them into Super Neato Program D, and then freely distribute that as well.
If I, as a device manufacturer, want to make a non-modifiable device that I can't change, I can use GPL code to do that. But I can't reserve rights for myself that my end-users don't have. If I can modify the device, they must be able to also.
Tivo, in other words, is stealing code. They are taking the kernel code and releasing a locked device with it; they are using GPLed code with a hardware addition to reserve rights for themselves that their end users don't have. If they want to release a locked device, that's fine, but then they can't piggyback on the work of thousands of volunteers. They have to create the device themselves, with their own code, or buy it from someone that has the right to release it under a non-GPL license.
If you argue to the contrary, you're in favor of giving hardware manufacturers special powers to enslave those who write software. You're relegating the software guys to second-class citizenship.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 14, 2006 20:22 UTC (Sat) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] As you must know, if you've been paying any attention to this issue, many key kernel developers, among others, disagree with you that this is even unfair, let alone illegal. Note also that the manufacturers, in your example, are NOT witholding the code, only the right to modify the device by installing new software. Note also that they generally do NOT retain the right to modify the software in the device, since they generally no longer have access to the device. The only way they can install modified software is if you let them, either by asking them to ("run iPod updater") or by subscribing to a service that may load new firmware (like Tivo service). Since they are then acting as the owner's agent, I'm not sure there's really an issue here at all...
Referring to it as "stealing", in any case, is just wrong. Copyright infringement is not theft, regardless of what the RIAA and MPAA would have you believe.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 14, 2006 22:51 UTC (Sat) by malor (subscriber, #2973) [Link] Yes, I realize that key kernel developers don't like this. However, in watching their verbal gyrations on the issue, I have come to the belief that this is not because of any particular ideal of free software. Rather, it appears to be because the GPLv3 will slow the adoption of their pet project and, thus, the spreading of their fame and future employability.
The whole point of the GPL is that I can't use your code, distribute it to others, and keep rights to myself that I don't give to my end users. If I load it onto a device, but retain the right to modify software in the device, they must also have that right. And your assertion that I can only install modified software with their permission is incorrect. The fact that most manufacturers have been polite and done so, does not mean that they are required to. If I'm the manufacturer of a Tivo-esque device, I do not have to ask for any permission from anyone to update 'my' device.
And no, calling it stealing isn't wrong. Copyright infringement is not theft, because the producer of music/movies/whatever isn't deprived of anything, except possibly a potential sale. But in the case of software, part of the original agreement is to allow end users (including the original author of the code) full rights to any distribution of that code.
Distributing it in a locked hardware device does indeed deprive the original developer of something, the ability to use the device in the way he or she wants. 'Stealing' is perfectly appropriate; they have taken something from you and not fulfilled their primary responsiblity, which is to give end users the exact rights that they have. You have a clear and demonstrable loss.
If the FSF bends to the pressure of the loud kernel devs, they are trading away the future of their entire movement for a little near-term success for one project. They permanently relegate software developers to second-class citizenship behind hardware manufacturers.
I think they know that, and I hope they will refuse to bend on this issue.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 6:46 UTC (Tue) by JoeF (guest, #4486) [Link] Unfortunately as soon as Hollywood legislative power makes DRM mandatory for classes of devices manufacturer opposition will vanish.
And the result will be that the manufacturers will use Windows or other non-free software. The FSF will have reached their goal, no GPL software on such devices. Unfortunately, it will be a hollow "victory", as there will be no free software on these devices.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 7:07 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] And there will be a clear victim of DRM laws which will cause legislators to think, instead of GPL software being progressively and quietly killed on those devices, because no one but the manufacturers can deploy code on them and no third parties are interested by GPL code if there's no harware to run it on.
And you can go complain at the legislator then, you won't have any bargaining power left.
HDCP cards are making their way on computers. So we're losing displays. If you believe the open computer will resist long if no one opposes Hollywood you are a fool. GPLv2+DRM happens to enable corporations to do the BSD on GPL code they wanted all along
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 5, 2006 20:24 UTC (Thu) by AJWM (guest, #15888) [Link] > which will cause legislators to think,
What planet are you on? Sounds nice, legislators that might actually think, even if it does take some force.
If (hypothetically) Tivo were to die because a GPLv3 Linux was no longer allowed on it, that would NOT be seen as "a clear victim of DRM laws", but as "a victim of the capriciousness of those leftist hippies in the free software community", and held up as a cautionary tale against using GPL'd software.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 6, 2006 7:32 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] > > which will cause legislators to think,
> What planet are you on?
A planet were I do actually read reports of the parliament debates on subjects I'm interested in.
The GPLv3 may seems strange and surprising to some. For people who followed the DADVSI/EUCD debate in France (of which the FSF was one actor BTW) it's a very logical development.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 21:21 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Or do you agree with me that the president of the FSF is in a unique legal position (and has the unprecedented legal power) to change the license affecting the contribution dynamics of 350 million lines of code instantly?Agreed, but I would say that the process instituted to update the GPL is also unprecedented. In 1991 Stallman sat down and wrote the GPLv2 on his own. 15 years later he is runnning an unprecedented consultation process: constant legal counselling by Moglen, FSF support, world-wide consultations, 4 conferences, industry-wide committees, and even a web-wide legal hunt for side effects. Even the opposition (as in Linus Torvalds) has admired how it was set up. Do you agree with me that such huge power brings with itself a minimal moral obligation to at least /understand/ and adopt to the position of the community that created that codebase, instead of trying to advance his own moral position?I would say Stallman has understood you quite well, and then consciously rejected your position. It is evident in the "most people don't appreciate freedom" quote that you dislike so much; or in his endless rants about "free software vs open source". If Stallman placed convenience or development process over freedom, then we (as in those who like GPLv3) would be disappointed.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 2, 2006 23:46 UTC (Mon) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] I would say Stallman has understood you quite well, and then consciously rejected your position. And you think that's fair and morally justified? Do you now see why such an arbitrary "rejection of a position" combined with "unparalleled legal power" scares most of the kernel developers? If Linus did that, and if it mattered to enough people, they'd walk away and start another kernel tree. But there is no real remedy for RMS's behavior, and he acts accordingly.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 6:43 UTC (Tue) by gmaxwell (subscriber, #30048) [Link] If he accepted your position he would reject mine. Is that morally justified?
Inaction has no special virtue... a failure to act can be just as unethical as an action.
Reasonable people can believe an argument that the FSF is not even acting in this case... but rather clarifying an intended part of the licenses which was always there.
Or, to put a systems analogy on it: You've used a module as a black box without reading the comments and documentation, and now you are aggregated because the new version of the module has had code changes so that it continues provide the intended behavior (as documented) in an environment which has changed.
GPLv2 or, at your option, any later version Posted Oct 3, 2006 8:34 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Do you now see why such an arbitrary "rejection of a position" combined with "unparalleled legal power" scares most of the kernel developers?I would not say the rejection was arbitrary. It has been justified repeatedly and since a long time ago by Stallman. You said above you did not agree with the GNU manifesto but found GPLv2 reasonable; that anti-DRM clauses were out of scope. I think that is just because you have seen one in action (GPLv2) but not the other (GPLv3). Your distrust is justified but, as gmaxwell said above, inaction against a visible threat would not be welcome by most people. Leaving these issues to "markets" would be like trusting Microsoft to open up their protocols. If Linus did that, and if it mattered to enough people, they'd walk away and start another kernel tree.I gather from LWN (not an expert by any means) that many people keep parallel trees; e.g. micro-kernel advocates, alternate security framework proponents, and lately yourself. Has it changed Linus' attitude towards these issues? On the other hand, many people have proposed alternative licenses, even copyleft licenses. You are free to relicense all of your extant code if you want; not in the kernel, but the kernel is not an option for GPLv3 either.
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