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FSF is creating a problem that never existed!FSF is creating a problem that never existed!Posted Oct 2, 2006 12:03 UTC (Mon) by laf0rge (subscriber, #6469)In reply to: FSF is creating a problem that never existed! by mingo Parent article: Busy busy busybox
Ingo, I don't really understand your hatred against the GPLv3 and the process. I've personally witnessed (and contributed some minor issues to) the GPLv3 process, and I can absolutely not support the statement of it not being open.
In fact, very early on, I feared that the process wouldn't be open. But especially looking at the changes between the first and second draft, you can't really claim that the feedback from the community has no influence on the license drafts, can you?
Isn't it just that you happened not to care about the GPLv3 process until it was already going on for more than six months? Why was I the only kernel developer present at those three GPLv3 conferences that I've been to?
If you feel like basing your criticism on a solid basis, I suggest you outline which comments you made at which state of the process, how those comments were submitted to the FSF, and which response you got or didn't get.
btw: Almost all my old code is GPLv2 only. Because I never know in advance how any later version might look like. Now that v3 starts to materialize, I'm sure I'll switch to "v2 or v3" wording. The openness of the FSF license drafting process might even make me dare to use "or any later version" in new code that I write from now on.
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FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 2, 2006 15:00 UTC (Mon) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] In practical terms the GPLv3 process has been very open to input, but there is no evidence that it is open to change of substance. Since the actual decision process is out-of-sight, and since RMS gets the final say, it's hard to describe this as a fully open process.
Note, however, that I have no reason to believe that the issues of substance (like anti-DRM) are things on which a more open decision process would make any changes. I'm prepared to believe that the FSF core membership shares RMS's position on the necessity of those changes.
FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 2, 2006 18:05 UTC (Mon) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] There is one ample difference between the GPLv3 process and free software development:
If Linus gets a major thing wrong, he puts on his brown paper bag, fixes the problem, and releases a new version. If a tiny-little bug was found, it would probably wait for the next release.
In this case there is no "next release". All bugs need to be found in the current release (GPLv3). Or they'll remain for practically forever.
FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 2, 2006 15:23 UTC (Mon) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] Ingo, I don't really understand your hatred against the GPLv3 and the process.If you read my replies, they outline all the worries that i have. There is no "hatred" (for every issue i raised i have written down the basis of that worry - which i believe is not irrational), just a deep disapproval/frustration of monopolistic/dictatorial practices, and a worry that a previously unified community would be split by using legal powers - a disapproval shared by many others on this and on other forums. While i can see little in the GPLv3 that will solve practical license related problems we have in free software today (i see a few things that could solve future problems), i already see real collateral damage caused by it: we wasted way too much time on this unsolvable problem already, we just lost the busybox maintainer, and i'm afraid more pain is to follow. I'm also worried that RMS justifies the closed decision-making process of the GPLv3 because: "Most of our community does not appreciate freedom" . To answer your points, the fact that /you/ like the end result might have something to do with the fact that you are content with the process, dont you think? Do you agree with me in theory that if i dont like the end result (so far), and i see that it is in large part due to the fact that RMS keeps full legal control over the next version of the GPL (which only he can do - no other person on the planet), that i have the right to at least be worried about the concentration of so much power in a single hand? Or should i queue up with you just because you like the end-result? Even if i were happy with the GPLv3 i'd still accept the right of others to be upset about it, if they are ready to articulate their points.
FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 2, 2006 18:22 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] I'm also worried that RMS justifies the closed decision-making process of the GPLv3 because: "Most of our community does not appreciate freedom".To put it in context, Stallman says just above that: These are the kind of people that assume that you should choose between Free Software and proprietary software based on practical convenience, which is another way of saying that they value freedom at zero.Why is that worrying? I thought most kernel developers were all for practical convenience, and freedom was just a secondary concern. (Maybe not valued at zero, but very little.) Linus Torvalds himself chose to use a proprietary program for source code management because it was more convenient than the competition in the free software camp. If you appreciate convenience features more than your freedom, then you will agree that you don't appreciate freedom too much. Most people are like that. That is not bad, just a fact of life.
FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 2, 2006 18:58 UTC (Mon) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link] >>These are the kind of people that assume that you should choose between Free Software and proprietary software based on practical convenience, which is another way of saying that they value freedom at zero.>Why is that worrying?
It is a sad day when one voice levels the accusation "unethical" at someone else's behavior, while falling short of defining what "ethics" is.
FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 3, 2006 9:40 UTC (Tue) by cate (subscriber, #1359) [Link] Freedom is very subjective. Anarchy is the most individual freedom, but do this means that you have more freedom possible? If we don't want anarchy, it means that we don't consider freedom, right?Your (and RMS) arguments are far to extreme.
Anyway, are you saying? The GPLv2 was not about freedom and only the GPLv3 give us freedoms?
Freedom over convenience Posted Oct 3, 2006 9:55 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] You don't have to interpret Stallman's sayings; you have a lot of his own exegesis online. He just asks you to value convenience over freedom, and freedom is a well defined set of conditions. The guy is not asking you to give your life for the revolution, just to give up OpenGL with certain cards, or wait a little. I don't think those conditions are too extreme. I live according to his precepts and have been happy ever after! (Just joking :)Both GPLv2 and v3 are about freedom; times change and licenses must be updated to reflect the new conditions and close any loopholes.
Freedom over convenience Posted Oct 3, 2006 21:58 UTC (Tue) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] I suspect that was supposed to be "to not value convenience over freedom".
I would note, though, that "content vs freedom" is a different equation than "convenience vs freedom". A lot of content is simply not available (legally) without DRM. And that's because the content owners are exercising their right to control the circumstances under which they release their content, just as GPL authors control the circumstance under which they release theirs.
Stallman, of course, says "movies are generally no good - you're better off without them" and "if you really want movies, go find copies that people are sharing in violation of their licenses." [those are paraphrases, but definitely in the spirit of the actual quotes]
Freedom over convenience Posted Oct 4, 2006 10:10 UTC (Wed) by stijn (subscriber, #570) [Link] When exercising their rights the content owners are using a big club and overwielding it to the extent that 1) you loose the rights or the power to exercise rights you had before (think fair use, time/space shifting). 2) the means they use encroach in other technological areas as well.
Increasingly ridiculous EULAs will be substituted by and implemented with DRM. Information or content if you will will be licensed under EULA type restrictions.
I am not sure I disagree with anything you say, but somehow I have trouble grasping the symmetry between DRM-licensed content and GPL-licensed code, looking at it from the perspective of nourishing creativity and progress - rip and mix.
Freedom over convenience Posted Oct 4, 2006 14:49 UTC (Wed) by sepreece (subscriber, #19270) [Link] The symmetry is pretty straightforward. The GPL says "you may redistribute so long as you meet these conditions." Movie and music producers say to their distributors "you may redistribute our content so long as you meet these conditions".
I'm certainly not saying that the content owners are nourishing creativity and progress by restricting their content, just that what they are doing appears to be within the rights granted them by copyright. For that matter, I have reservations about the GPL on the same point.
As to fair use, it's a very slippery concept. There's never been a hard definition that allows you to know exactly what use is fair use. In any case, fair use limits the owner's ability to sue you for certain uses of hte material, it doesn't require that the content owner make it easy to make fair use of the material.
For instance, a reporter clearly has a right to quote from a public speech, but there is no requirement that the speaker provide even a written transcript, let alone an electronic transcript or recording. Similarly, the fair-use right to quote from a movie for a review doesn't require that the owners provide clips, either on request or by capture from a playback device; it just means you're not infringing if you use clips in a review [note,however, that if you got those clips by circumventing DRM, as opposed to by videotaping a playback, you may still be violating the DMCA].
FSF is creating a problem that never existed! Posted Oct 2, 2006 19:26 UTC (Mon) by landley (guest, #6789) [Link] > I'm also worried that RMS justifies the closed decision-making process> of the GPLv3 because: "Most of our community does not appreciate > freedom" .
While I remain as amused as ever by those who would impose democracy at
Some people consider a BSD license to be "good enough". I disagree
With GPLv3 the FSF is off on an ideological kick trying to open up the
GPLv2 has an excellent pragmatic effect, good for the project's
But fundamentally, the central issue for me is that GPLv2 is good enough,
FSF is trying to solve our coming problems Posted Oct 2, 2006 20:28 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] And people still wonder why Stallman tells the printer driver story all the time.GPLv2 was not about forking, gainful employment or development at all; it was about replacing the darn printer driver in the 90's. GPLv3 is about replacing it in the 21st century. Once the printer server runs a TPM chip it's back to square one. With the GPLv3 Stallman is just saying: "you can do it, but not with my code". It's simple, really.
FSF is making the Tivo situation worse Posted Oct 2, 2006 21:05 UTC (Mon) by mingo (subscriber, #31122) [Link] GPLv2 was not about forking, gainful employment or development at all; it was about replacing the darn printer driver in the 90's. The printer driver situation was materially different from the Tivo situation. The printer driver was closed-source and he could not get the source code to fix obvious bugs in it. Today most of the printers have free drivers. Why? Not because the printing industry symphatises with RMS's desire to hack his printer driver, but because they saw an economic necessity to serve a growing market. (Linux servers and Linux desktops) In other words: the printing industry reacted to people's desire to run Linux, and to use their printers under Linux. Please remember: the key to having open printer drivers was people wanting Linux. But the Tivo situation is completely different. The Tivo was DRM-ed because it plays content from an industry that required its copyrighted works to be protected. There were people (besides honest tweakers) who were "hacking" not to fix bugs in the Tivo but to avoid having to pay for "pay per view" content. So replying to content industry pressure Tivo closed it down more than they have originally done (being an appliance, they never anticipated it being modifiable), and added this crypto based virtual-ROM technology that restricts the hardware to run only certain kernels that match a given hash. As far as the user is concerned it behaves like old-fashioned ROM, in practice it is not modifiable. (but the manufacturer can come and can flip in an upgraded ROM - just like with old-fashioned ROMs) If Tivo couldnt use Linux they'd be using LynxWorks or some other embedded OS, because people are not interested in the Linux in the Tivo, people are interested in Tivo's userspace app and in the content the Tivo is offering. Please think about it. By trying to go "eye for eye" with Tivo we only hurt Linux and help Hollywood's monopolization efforts, because one more small player would exit their market - and that small player does it all voluntarily, via a licensing change. We'd also further isolate Linux from a market that people are interested in. Whoah, Microsoft's dreams come true! So what we are doing via the anti-Tivo language is that we hurt Linux and help Hollywood. It will not result in free Tivos. It results in no DVD playing hardware or software being associated with Linux at all! The reason again: people are not interested in the Linux aspect of these players. And if the Tivo case is completely inapposite, if it achieves precisely the opposite effect, then why is the GPL trying to "address" it? Why are we doing all that anti-DRM stuff in the license to begin with, if it only hurts the little guy and helps big corp, even for the case that was singled out by RMS himself: Tivo?
Tivo sucks Posted Oct 2, 2006 21:41 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Ingo, do not let those Hollywood arguments drive you. Just imagine that the Tivo player, apart from recording movies and replaying them, has an attached printer and you want to print a screen capture. Or a program listing, whatever. Then you discover that the printer is not working for you, since the driver is broken. Then you, who are an excellent kernel programmer and knows that the thing runs Linux, want to repair the driver. Then you find out about the TPM and how it won't let you upgrade the device you legally bought, because the guys who took your money are treating you like a thief. Then... déja vu.And if the Tivo case is completely inapposite [...]My goodness, inapposite is a word! Anyway, I would gladly leave that bastard market to Microsoft. It would save Linux from the creepy associations that DRM brings, and would be one more reason to see DRM crumble. But then it's not my code in there.
Tivo sucks Posted Oct 3, 2006 15:46 UTC (Tue) by southey (subscriber, #9466) [Link] I don't see your point. What I understand, as I don't have Tivo, is that they provide the source code so you can fix your issues. So it is incorrect to say that it won't let you upgrade the device you legally bought.The real issue for you is that you still want to run Tivo when you have modifed your Tivo system. However, Tivo is the combined package of hardware, software and content, so you can not have one without the others. Also, you are not clear on what you actually brought and under what terms when getting a Tivo system. By modifying your software and/or hardware you have appeared to violated the terms of sale and/or contract with Tivo in that you can use the hardware and software just not with Tivo. If MythTV and other similar software got easy to install and competitive then current Tivo situation probably would become disappear. In your argument you seem to be forgetting the rights of the people that are involved. If Tivo did not use TPM it would have to find some other method of control to protect the rights of itself and the content providers. The real answer is not DRM or GPLv3 but working with the likes of Tivo and other content providers to protect everyone's rights.
Tivo sucks Posted Oct 3, 2006 23:27 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] What I understand, as I don't have Tivo, is that they provide the source code so you can fix your issues.Except that you can't. You can't run modified software so source code is useless. In your argument you seem to be forgetting the rights of the people that are involved.I forget them for a reason. Imagine that I tell you that the U.S. Constitution must "balance" the rights of the people and those of the Government: you would probably laugh at me. The government doesn't need rights, since it has the power. Or suppose we are talking about slavery and I tell you that we need to "balance" the rights of the slave with those of the master. The imbalance is so strong to begin with that it is ludicrous. The right to copy (or copyright) was called that way because it expressed the rights of the author to be paid by a publisher. Here the powerful party was the publisher; no rights of his were "balanced" against those of the author. Now the "author" has become so powerful that you, the reader, have nothing to bargain with -- except your money, and money can hardly be called "a right". There is no way I can balance e.g. my rights of fair use with anything else; the publisher just locks the work of art and I'm screwed. Yes, Tivo can "balance" their contract with content providers, but I'm left out of the loop: I lose every time. The "rights" in "Digital Rights Management" are farcical. So I prefer to forget them to avoid cronic depression.
Tivo sucks Posted Oct 20, 2006 10:52 UTC (Fri) by blujay (guest, #39961) [Link] I know this is an old thread, but...
The answer is: Don't buy the Tivo! You keep using an argument
Imagine a situation where Linux went GPLv3. Can you force Tivo to start
I read a comment earlier that basically said, "I think we're important
Linux and Free Software are getting some pull in enterprise systems, it
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