beg to differ [LWN.net]

beg to differ

Posted Sep 27, 2006 0:25 UTC (Wed) by JoeF (subscriber, #4486) [Link]

Nope. That is what you may think.
The fact is that the GPLv2 restricts distribution. Use, be it internal or external, is not restricted.
Again, the GPLv3 restricts the use, and therefore goes against the freedom you so stress. The GPLv3 restricts the freedom to use an application. Plain and simple. And that is bad.
And I would appreciate if you stopped accusing me of being unethical. It is you who is completely out of line with your slavery comparison. If I would use your line of "argument", I would have to argue that the GPLv3 enslaves people, by restricting the use of software.
What is next, restricting the use of GPLed software in stem-cell research, because that goes against the ethics of some people? Keep your political stand out of software licenses.

beg to differ

Posted Sep 27, 2006 9:07 UTC (Wed) by Jel (guest, #22988) [Link]

Well then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

affero clause

Posted Sep 27, 2006 4:55 UTC (Wed) by sanjoy (subscriber, #5026) [Link]

If you can't use a GPL3-version of a program on a website without giving people the source, then it is a use restriction.

The so-called Affero restriction is a modification restriction. If you get a program subject to the Affero restrction, you are free to run the program as you received it. If the program is a web service and makes its source available to users, then when you run it, it would do the same. You cannot remove those facilities, so your right of modification is restricted.

If the program is not a web service, but you turn it into one, then you have to make sure that you include "get the source" facilities. That's also a modification restriction: "You are free to modify it so long as you...".

--Sanjoy Mahajan

affero clause

Posted Sep 27, 2006 6:27 UTC (Wed) by JoeF (subscriber, #4486) [Link]

Even as a modification restriction, it restricts the freedom more than the GPLv2.
And modification is a case of use. I can use a GPLv2 program any way I want, including modifying it in any way I want.

modification restrictions in GPLv2

Posted Sep 27, 2006 9:07 UTC (Wed) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]

> I can use a GPLv2 program any way I want, including
> modifying it in any way I want.

No, you can't. Reread section 2.

http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html#SEC3

modification restrictions in GPLv2

Posted Sep 27, 2006 14:36 UTC (Wed) by JoeF (subscriber, #4486) [Link]

That section talks about "copy and distribute" modifications. Thanks for making my point.

modification restrictions in GPLv2 and the Affero clause

Posted Sep 28, 2006 1:01 UTC (Thu) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]

You are correct; section 2 of the GPLv2 doesn't emphasise the fact that
modification is also covered by the licence. Basically for most classes
of software if your modification is kept private no-one is going to know
or care. But in most countries you simply don't have the right to modify
the code except as the licence permits (and except, in a few countries,
for fair use rights, as Dan J "you don't need a licence" Bernstein of
qmail fame insists: http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html).

It was the original choice of the FSF not to make too big a beef about
restricting modification. But you are nevertheless prohibited by clause
2c from removing copyright, warranty and licence announcements or menu
options from an interactive program (that's not how it's worded, because
furthermore they want you to *add* those things if you turn a
non-interactive program into an interactive one). That's true even with
GPLv2 and even for modifications you only make in private.

The Affero clause is an equivalent restriction, prohibiting removal of a
feature. The difference is, that in the case of a web application
available to the public, your modifications are on show to the world, so
a 'private modification' infringement is not private at all. It is
visible and meaningful in a way that it isn't for something you only use
within your own organisation.

The fundamental difference is not in the way the licence or copyright law
works, but in the nature of the application and in the fact that this
kind of breach is actually visible. The language of the Affero clause
therefore chooses to emphasise a different point of law.

An attempt to enforce clause 2c of the GPLv2 against modifications to
your own copy of emacs would be frivolous. But the legally-equivalent
Affero clause has teeth.

> Thanks for making my point.

The point I have made is that modification restrictions in the GPL have
no effect on your right to use the copyrighted software you received
under the GPL. Nor do they have any effect on your right to *use* your
own modified versions -- but you have no right to make a modified version
except as the licence permits.

Somehow I don't think this is the same as the point that you think I've
made for you. People seem to think that because they are granted certain
permissions in respect of a particular version of a program, all possible
versions should carry the same permissions. That is not the case. The
licence actively prohibits some of those possible versions.

It has long been argued and agreed that BSD- and MIT-style licences
are "more free" than the GPLv2. The Affero General Public Licence and
the GPLv3 are, in different ways, each slightly "less free" than the
GPLv2, but in exactly the same way as the GPLv2 is "less free" than BSD:
they are copyleft licences which relax but do not overstep the bounds of
copyright.

If you wish, now that you understand that the monopoly granted by
copyright includes the exclusive right to prepare derivative works, to
join the good old BSD crew and bash the GPL for being un-free, go ahead.
The GPL camp won't miss you.

modification restrictions in GPLv2 and the Affero clause

Posted Sep 28, 2006 1:33 UTC (Thu) by JoeF (subscriber, #4486) [Link]

Your last sentence is of course one of the things that I have come to expect from zealots.
It is the GPL way or the highway...
Guess what, this elitist attitude is what will be the GPLs downfall.
Sad to see that GPL "defenders" are indeed on the same level as the average religious nut case.