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First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com)
Linux.com previews the
new open source Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server. "While
the release of the new open source Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging
server is still a few months away, the binaries have been brought out in a
preview package that is, according to the license that comes with it,
"pre-release software with known issues and is not suitable for production
use." We tried it out, just to see where Scalix is heading. The good news
-- it's heading in the right direction for small and medium-sized
businesses."
(Log in to post comments)
I must be dense Posted Sep 26, 2006 19:08 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] I read the article, or more accurately, I started by reading it, but it never says exactly what it is other than an enterprise messaging server, so I began to skim, looking for some kind of actual explanation. References to requiring Tomcat didn't make it any clearer.
Sendmail, irc, webdav, even an NFS partition -- I suppose all those could be messaging servers too. What, exactly, does Scalix do that makes it worth investigating?
What is Enterprise Messaging? Posted Sep 26, 2006 20:40 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] Well, let's see. They compare it to Microsoft Exhange Server... then they list the components of Scalix 11... although they are a bit nebulous.
I'm guessing Scalix is like Zimbra in that it melds lots of pieces together and you manage everything as one product. What does it meld together? I would assume SMTP, POP, IMAP, anti-spam, anti-virus, calendaring, global addressbook and contacts, with an attractive and usable webmail system that lets you access all of the features of the integrated mail system.
I'm familiar with Zimbra (www.zimbra.com) as I've been testing it for a few months... and it installs apache w/tomcat, postfix, mysql, openldap, clamav, amavisdnew, spamassassin, dspam and a few other things... and then has command line and web-based management tools. Any by-hand modifications to any of the individual server application's config files are overwritten whenever the zimbra management tools are used... as it will regenerate all of the server app config files from zimbra settings... and to the best of my knowledge, there isn't a way to reliably add your own settings.
My point is that even though it might be made up of a lot of different pieces, including sendmail, I doubt it lets you configure the various pieces independently of the whole... but I'm only guessing with regards to Scalix.
So, does that explain what an "Enterprise Messaging System" is well enough? :)
Sort of :-) Posted Sep 26, 2006 20:55 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] I admin my own systems, but don't enjoy it, and I have never been an admin for hire. I suppose what I really don't understand is what benefit these big comglomerations provide that the independent packages don't. If you have one program which handles everything, maybe it could integrate well, cough cough, except that I have never heard much praise for Exchange Server.
Besides, this isn't one big package, it is just a bunch of independent packages presumably strung together.
What's the point? Does it save that much time configuring and installing them to make it worthwhile for admins?
Stringing together apps to make a "messaging system"? Posted Sep 26, 2006 22:51 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] Ok, how much work is it to install all of the components of Zimbra... get them all configured... and then get them to interoperate such that people have public and private calendars, public and private contacts and address books... anti-spam and anti-virus systems, support for pop/imap, and an extremely functional multi-platform, web-based frontend that supports all of the features... and (with the pay versions) client access from Microsoft Windows/Outlook... and even mobile devices?
Ok, that was a long, run-on question but hopefully you get the point. My guess is that you couldn't construct a functional (integrated) system out of all of those pieces with all of that functionality (I know I couldn't)... so did I answer your question?
I think I begin to see Posted Sep 26, 2006 23:46 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] You and the others have answered my questions, yes. I am definitely not the intended market. It's not that I enjoy adminning so much as I would always wonder about the individual components. What if I wanted a different email server, or irc, or whatever -- I use both vi and emacs depending on what I want, and the same goes for browsers, message programs, etc. I might see a problem, know how to fix it by changing a specific configuration for that program, and end up confusing the conglomerating program. I sure do like easier ways to do things, but I reckon things like this would be too generic and "dumbed down" for me, at least in the current state of the art.
Thanks to all of you for the explanations. Someday they may do what I want, so I had better start paying attention now.
Sort of :-) Posted Sep 26, 2006 22:53 UTC (Tue) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link] The difference is one of point of view.
You would want to buy Scalix if your interested in deploying a 'solution'. You would want to use individual software packages on a generic system such as Debian if your interesting in building your own 'solution'.
This sort of thing is aimed at people who may be alright administrators but couldn't figure out how to compile a peice of software or do a sendmail configuration to save their life. These are the sort of people that go out to Dell's website and buy a 'server' with Microsoft 2003 SBS edition installed on it and use that for a small business.
That is the market that Linux systems have failed utterly at. No penetration, no presence. No market share, no mind share. And that is not to say that Linux wouldn't work out well in a situation which SBS targets.. it's just that nobody has yet to put it in a attractive markettable package for those people yet.
This is what Scalix is attempting to do. It's a marketting thing.
""What's the point? Does it save that much time configuring and installing them to make it worthwhile for admins?""
Sometimes it will save time though if it does what you want and how you want it. For instance that Zimbra is a realy good match for many orginizations already and that would save a lot of time for some people.
HOWEVER we are not talking about targetting good admins. It is about targetting the same sort of people SBS is targetting. Those people may have a hard time figuring out to download and burn a install cdrom via bittorrent, much less setting up a corporate friendly 'solution' based on something like CentOS.
For instance IPcop is kinda like Scalix, but for a different purpose.
In my personal experiance I've fallen in love with IPcop. I got tired of dealing with my craptastic linksys router. Previous to the linksys I had a Linux-based home router/firewall I built using a old PC. So I decided to do that again with a nicer PC (as in it didn't run and sound like crap) and I 'termporarially' installed IPcop on it. I figured I would realy end up installing OpenBSD or stripped down Debian Stable and making my own router... I needed something 'right then and there', though. But damn that IPcop stuff is nice! I will still end up probably replacing it with a custom system, but right now I have lost all desire to do so as I have more important things to do.
IPcop doesn't do anything that I can't do myself using software I compiled myself. In fact I would end up using pretty much all the same software. But they do a realy good job of packaging it and putting a nice web front end on it. I don't think I could do nearly as a good job on it as they do, for being a generic 'SOHO' router/firewall solution.
Whole more than just a sum of the parts Posted Sep 26, 2006 23:34 UTC (Tue) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link] Both the Scalix product and the Zimbra Collaboration Suite have done more than just string some product together. Since I'm more familiar with Zimbra I'll talk about it.
The Zimbra web-based mail client is excellent... and as a result of all of the server apps... and a custom web-app to take advantage of all of the features in an integrated way, it truly offers something that even the best admins in the country couldn't pull off by simply stringing a bunch of server apps together... and who can afford the cream of the crop admins anyway?
Pardon me while I state the obvious... but the Internet email system is ancient and it wasn't designed to meet the security and business needs we have today. And in many areas, standards are lacking. How do disparate email clients share an addressbook? How do disparate calender applications share calendars? Contacts? What about resource (meeting rooms, multimedia equipment, etc) scheduling? What about searches (email and attachment) and advanced attachment handling? While there may be some standards in those areas, there really isn't even a difficult way (much less an easy way) to integrate all of those features into a "enterprise messaging system". Yeah, that is a unhappy phrase... so insert your desired replacement... but anyway, Microsoft did a fairly good job (have to give them kudos where it is deserved) with their Exchange Server and Outlook product lines. That isn't to say that the design, implimentation, stability and security of Exchange/Outlook measures up... but at least the feature set and integration was there... and as a result, many, many businesses, local, county, state and federal government agencies are stuck using Exchange/Outlook. I'm sure there are a large number of Exchange administrators who absolutely hate Exchange... but what alternatives did they have? ...other than other proprietary systems like Lotus Notes, etc?
I'm glad to see a few Linux alternatives spring up... that, while commercial in nature, have actually embraced the open source / free software model by offering free (both beer and speech) editions.
We definitely need more "business solutions" in the Linux business space... while keeping it open source / free software as much as possible.
So, to summarize... what do Scalix and Zimbra do? They make things previously not possible with Linux possible. Zimbra has really been innovative... and I wonder just where they are going to go with their document sharing features... but since they have given me a glimpse of what is possible with their last few releases, I'm starting to see just how much better an email system can be.
If you have no idea of what I'm talking about... and you aren't afraid to use flash... check out Zimbra's flash-based tutorials:
http://www.zimbra.com/products/demos.html
BTW, I do not work for Zimbra... I'm just a happy user.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 26, 2006 19:09 UTC (Tue) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Too bad it's hard wired to sendmail - if the choice of mta were a configurable parameter which would allow the administrator to choose a secure, efficient MTA - say, for instance, postfix - it would be a much more compelling story.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 26, 2006 21:45 UTC (Tue) by dwayne (subscriber, #17004) [Link] You can use postfix instead of sendmail. This is just not an officialy supported environment any more.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 27, 2006 0:26 UTC (Wed) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] what do you mean by "any more"? AFAIK this was a sendmail project from the get go, back at HP where it was first developed.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 26, 2006 22:10 UTC (Tue) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link] I'm a postfix fan myself but, really, who cares? The whole point of a system like this is that the software manages all the settings of the MTA (and the web server and the LDAP and ...)
If you as an admin have to touch the sendmail config, the system is broken. Same as if it were running postfix.
Technically sendmail is still perfectly capable, and it's much more secure than it used to be.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 27, 2006 0:34 UTC (Wed) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] > I'm a postfix fan myself but, really, who cares? The whole point of a system like this is that the software manages all the settings of the MTA (and the web server and the LDAP and ...)
Regardless of the turnkey aspect, I still care about performance, and I still care about security. It's not only the backyard mechanic that cares what sort of engine he has - even though I buy a car from a dealer, I have definite ideas about what I want under the hood. The dealer might tell me "you don't have to worry about all those details, we build the whole car for you", but that doesn't cut it - I still want quality and performance.
BTW I used to be a diehard sendmail guy, but some head to head testing I did between sendmail and postfix under heavy load really opened my eyes. All the shops I admin for have migrated from sendmail to postfix, and when that happened, it was the end of MTA security alerts. Not to mention the fact that the postfix boxes digest incoming mail at a rate that would bring sendmail to it's knees on the same hardware.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 27, 2006 13:14 UTC (Wed) by gren (subscriber, #3954) [Link] I am a programmer, working for Scalix. Here's what I think is interesting about what we do.
Scalix is an Enterprise Messaging Server, probably more comparable to Microsoft Exchange than anything else.
Scalix evolved from the HP OpenMail product - which we licensed from HP about 4 years ago. Thus, many of the features of the product are things that nearly 2 decades worth of HP and Scalix Customers have requested. As such, Scalix is NOT just an aggregation of other people's software. Yes, we can use things like Sendmail (or Postfix if desired) to do Internet Mail transport rather than do it with our own code - but that has to be better than re-inventing the wheel for no good reason.
Again, the big thing for me is that we were able to persuade HP to allow us to open source our product and I look forward to what this makes possible in terms of building open source solutions.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 27, 2006 15:34 UTC (Wed) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link] Thanks for the message. We use Bynari Insight Server at my organization, and I'm wondering how Scalix compares. I doubt we'll likely switch, but I'm still interested personally because I want to see a completely Open Source solution to this.
> more comparable to Microsoft Exchange than anything else.
Perhaps, but Bynari's offering is pretty much similar from what I can tell.
> 1. Good Outlook support
Bynari has that, but you have to license the connector separately. Will your Outlook connector be fully open source? (I know, best to get rid of Outlook, but some people are *really* stubborn!)
> 2. More exciting for LWN readers (and hugely for me) is that we plan
Good, but it would be interesting to know what *won't* be open source.
> The mail store itself will probably be the last because of the
Well that's pretty important though. I think one of the worst things about Exchange is the proprietary mail store. I want to be able to access mail boxes using standard UNIX tools like du or grep, or perhaps SQL. Bynari uses Cyrus IMAP, which stores mail in a filesystem tree, so I can do that.
> 3. An AJAX web mail client - one of the first off the blocks with this.
Bynari has a webclient but isn't really AJAX. It's also a little slow, but the next version is supposed to be much better. You might be an improvement there, can't wait to try it.
Personally, I find webclients useful, but they do *not* replace desktop mail programs, no matter how well they're done. Does Evolution work well with it, supporting all the features of Outlook?
> 4. IMAP and Pop3 support.
Yep, got that.
Will there be room for community involvement in improving Scalix?
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 27, 2006 17:38 UTC (Wed) by gren (subscriber, #3954) [Link] > Will your Outlook connector be fully open source? (I know, best to> get rid of Outlook, but some people are *really* stubborn!)
I suspect for much the same reasons as for Bynari, the connector will not be open source.
> Good, but it would be interesting to know what *won't* be open source.
In addition to the Outlook Connector, Scalix Web Access will not be Open Source. Same is true for some components of the Scalix server, for instance we currently use a proprietry database to store our directory information and this will need to be replaced (but I won't be too sad about that). Internet access support for TNEF encoding (used by Exchange) is also currently not planned.
> Well that's pretty important though. I think one of the worst things
I agree that it is pretty important :-)
> Does Evolution work well with it, supporting all the features of Outlook?
All the features of Outlook? I'm not sure we would even want that and Evolution itself would need a lot more in the way of enhancements. I personally use our Evolution connector, mostly because of the Contacts and Calendaring integration which is certainly good enough for my needs. I also love Thunderbird but that doesn't yet have the calendaring integration I would like.
> Will there be room for community involvement in improving Scalix?
Yes, the usual suspects, like source, bug tracking, forums, ways to feed back comments and source changes etc.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 29, 2006 23:25 UTC (Fri) by addw (subscriber, #1771) [Link] > I suspect for much the same reasons as for Bynari, the connector will not be open source.
Pity: that would be the *most* useful bit to have open sourced. That single item would help to push MS Exchange out of the server room.
Once we had FLOSS mail/groupware servers that could talk to both MS Windows and FLOSS desktops, the corporate acceptance of FLOSS desktops would greatly increase.
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 27, 2006 18:34 UTC (Wed) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] gren:
> As such, Scalix is NOT just an aggregation of other people's software. Yes, we can use things like Sendmail (or Postfix if desired) to do Internet Mail transport rather than do it with our own code - but that has to be better than re-inventing the wheel for no good reason.
So, you're saying it no longer has sendmail hard-wired into it? If that has been addressed, we would find it very interesting, as its quite important to have the flexibility of controlling and fine tuning the MTA configuration, for complex and ever-evolving mail routing and antispam techniques...
First look: Scalix 11 Community Edition messaging server (Linux.com) Posted Sep 28, 2006 9:22 UTC (Thu) by gren (subscriber, #3954) [Link] Hi, sendmail has never really been hard wired in, although as a company, officially integrating support for other MTAs has not trickled to the top of the list (except early on in HP OpenMail history when we used to support an alternative called MMDF on SCO!). Having said that, there seem to be a number of our customers who have taken the plunge and are using Postfix instead of Sendmail.
See http://www.scalix.com/wiki/index.php?title=HowTos/MTA_Int...
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