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Day One of New EU Patent WarDay One of New EU Patent WarPosted Jul 21, 2006 13:50 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)In reply to: Day One of New EU Patent War by kleptog Parent article: Day One of New EU Patent War
> My personal experience was that the most common reason people voted
Of course they did.
The whole "vote yes" argument was basically:
"We wrote europeans treaties without your input before, now it's time to rubber-stamp them. We hear you'd like some democracy so we called the thing a constitution. But really, you're too irresponsible to have your destiny in your own hands, so we've produced a massive document no one but experts can evaluate. It will constrain the parliaments you'll elect later, so you needn't worry about them making mistakes. Trust us, and vote for democracy!"
Contrast it with:
"We hear you'd like more democracy so we've written a short document defining basic democratic values and leaving the task of defining actual (economic) policy to the experts you'll elect to the european parliament later. If you actually believe in democracy, vote to give a democratically elected assembly actual decision power."
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Day One of New EU Patent War Posted Jul 22, 2006 16:30 UTC (Sat) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] I'm saddened to hear you feel so badly about the way the EU was set up. It's the result of 50 years of work. At each stage every elected government at the time had a veto on the result. They were governments that citizens of the EU at the time had elected to represent them. If you really think every government for the last fifty years was seriously not looking out for their own citizen's interests, well, I'm sorry.
However, what you're suggesting as an alternative as totally impractical. The treaty exists to protect the member countries from the EU, much in the same way as a constitution exists to protect citizens from their government. As much as I think the EP is good idea, I'm not going to trust them above my own national government. For that reason, there should be clearly defined limits to the power of the EU and no EP or anything is going to fiddle with that.
Are there really any sections of the TCE you want the EP or the European Council to be able to fiddle with? I say nail 'em down so they can't move and if it takes 60,000 words to do so, so be it.
Day One of New EU Patent War Posted Jul 22, 2006 17:57 UTC (Sat) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] I respectfully disagree (and I think last vote showed most of France disagreed too). Democracy, not arcane indirect power contructs, is what protects citizens.
Power without accountability corrupts. What the Europeans mandarins built during the last 50 years is a system where governments can do back-room agreements, then push hypocritical horrified cries when the european directives they had written are transposed in national law a few years later (ie a no-accountability bureaucrat and lobbyist dream). And I won't dispute the fact most of them are honest or delude themselves in thinking this is all for the greater good.
I'm perfectly aware a European Parliament won't always vote in my country or my own interest. This is all part of the normal democratic process. I accept and do not fear it. My directly-elected representatives at least will know if they don't push for my interests I'll vote for someone else next time.
There are many parts of the TCE I disagree with but I'd have accepted them as long as there was a possibility to change them later through normal democratic process.
What I fear is institutions so complex politicians can reasonably expect normal citizens won't be able to trace their actions, so they needn't take voters into account.
Last year vote showed the French governement parties were so used to doing european policy behind voters back they couldn't defend it before them the one day they had to account for it. What's worse they spent months no realising this time they'd have to account for every single word of their proposal, and wouldn't be given « carte blanche » as usual.
I'm sorry if you can't understand the difference between democracy and enlightened dictatorship. Enlightened dictatorship always works better on paper - wise rulers protected from the whims of voters or direcly elected assemblies. However enlightened dictatorship posits enlightened rulers in the first place, and they tend to get rather scarse once you remove the accountability part.
(Not to mention most of the people who dared pose as enlightened elites last year had lost the voters trust a long time before)
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