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A day in the life of the CentOS teamA day in the life of the CentOS teamPosted Mar 25, 2006 19:36 UTC (Sat) by kokopelli (guest, #11341)Parent article: A day in the life of the CentOS team
I've probably done worse, and I'm a developer.
We tend to forget that the people who use our software are often extremely busy, under pressure to find a solution, and uncertain how to proceed. Sometimes that comes out... poorly. Especially when everyone is coming from different perspectives and backgrounds... and I'm sure the CentOS people would seem just as clueless if they suddenly found themselves facing what they believed to be an urgent problem on an, oh, AS/400.
Both sides handled this poorly (including the publication of the exchange -- how many managers will read this and avoid Linux because they think the community is too immature to trust?). All of us need to learn to stop and take a deep breath before hitting reply.
Better yet, compose the response and then go do something else for 15 minutes. I know I almost always tone down my question or response when I do this.
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A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 20:07 UTC (Sat) by hpp (subscriber, #4756) [Link] > How many managers will read this and avoid Linux because they think> the community is too immature to trust?
I think that's a good thing, actually. It means that the clueless
I work for a large corporation that uses Linux, perl ad other open source applications extensively. If our competitors won't, because they feel it is immature, has poor support, as has legal issues, it means our IT department is more efficient than theirs, and in the long term we outcompete them.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 20:26 UTC (Sat) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] Actually I think the arrogance on the Linux side is showing up in all the postings of this email exchange. I remember similar things on the old Amiga BBS's, OS/2, NextOS, BeOS, and various Unix's that no longer exist in any large marketspace (IRIX, Ultrix, etc). The community line would become a mantra of "It means that the clueless will go off to our inferior competitors and in the long term they cannot compete and suffer."
There is a reason that so many Greek tragedies are about hubris and what follies it occurs. We would be better spent learning from history than repeating it.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 21:08 UTC (Sat) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link] I really don't see how he could have been any more accommodating. Companies won't put up with that garbage with paying customers. Why should he when they aren't even paying him? The level of arrogance, aggressiveness, and paranoia were at a level which made conversation impossible.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 22:17 UTC (Sat) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] The level of arrogance I am refering to is the people who decide to make a lark about someone with 22 years IT etc. Sure the fellow comes across as an insufferable goat. I dont see where we get to throw the first stone so to speak.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 0:29 UTC (Sun) by dmaxwell (guest, #14010) [Link] > I dont see where we get to throw the first stone so to speak.
The city manager threw the first stone by threatening legal action and making baseless accusations. No matter how many times or how many way the CentOS dev tried to explain it he only got more and more threatening. He also made the terminal error of claiming technical compentency while making those threats. The CentOS people displayed far more patience than I would have. As the earlier poster pointed out, a commercial operation wouldn't put up with it either.
I would have explained it once then warned him about legal action myself. Bad publicity is the least of what this clown deserves. If I were a taxpayer in that town, I'd be seriously worried about the quality of help my tax dollars were buying.
22 long years Posted Mar 27, 2006 0:45 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] In his resume the guy claims to have been a Program Manager for 22 years at Raytheon. Can you imagine what levels of psychological torture his staff (for whatever programs he managed) must have endured? Oh well, this is just a small vengeance for all those tortured geeks.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 28, 2006 17:09 UTC (Tue) by carcassonne (guest, #31569) [Link] The level of arrogance I am refering to is the people who decide to make a lark about someone with 22 years IT etc22 years proves not much, isn't it ? You'd thought that by that time one could identify such a problem quite easily, or at least have enough clue to know where to look for apart from calling the FBI. Being a monk for 50 years does not necessarily make one a saint.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 22:48 UTC (Sat) by hpp (subscriber, #4756) [Link] Mind you, the arrogance of my previous post was not from a Linux viewpoint: it was from an IT department viewpoint (and this is at a Fortune 50 company). We find Open Source to be a competitive advantage, and if our competitors don't see it that way, the marketplace will decide who's right. When we benchamrk ouselves against our competitors, we get more done with less money, fewer people and with a higher uptime. As a result, we also get paid better :-)
Incidentally, that also means we feel free to abandon Open SOurce if a superior alternative comes along. Haven't seen that so far - in fact, when a commercial product gets inflicted on us (*cough* Exchange *cough*) it proves to be a royal pain in the behind.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 12:02 UTC (Sun) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] when a commercial product gets inflicted on us Most open source products are commercial too, at least if you ask Red Hat, Novell or IBM.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 14:06 UTC (Sun) by hpp (subscriber, #4756) [Link] > Most open source products are commercial too, at least if you ask> Red Hat, Novell or IBM.
True in the sense that you pay for commercial support. False in the sense that source code is available, we can make local patches, and we can bypass the vendor and do our own development.
One the key costs of commercial products in a large enterprise is integration: making it work with everything else that is out there. Having source code and the ability to make changes implies you can run the product in a different manner than the vendor intended; that you can analyze scalability problems yourself, and that the vendor cannot get away with false answers as to what causes any problems. Open Source saves time and money.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 19:17 UTC (Sun) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] Sorry, I don't understand much of your comment. Do you consider open source businesses non-commercial? In what way?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 20:54 UTC (Sun) by hpp (subscriber, #4756) [Link] I am trying to make a distinction between:
Ah, so you mean... Posted Mar 27, 2006 3:08 UTC (Mon) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] You would have been understood immediately if you used the more explicit terms Free vs. Proprietary:
I think we don't need "Open Source" any more.
Ah, so you mean... Posted Mar 27, 2006 14:42 UTC (Mon) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link] Actually, for proprietary, I'd leave out "closed source" and "don't tinker".
And being even more pedantic, "proprietary" comes from "property", meaning "owned" - and that INCLUDES LINUX! Okay, we don't use that word that way any more, but we can thank the marketing slogan "Unix is Proprietary, Windows is Open" for that ...
Cheers,
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 6:41 UTC (Mon) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] What has commercial to do with it? Where does noncommercial closed source fit in ("freeware")?
Why didn't you simply write closed source / open source, or nonfree ("proprietary") / free?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 14:41 UTC (Thu) by Alban (guest, #5500) [Link] Ermm. Shouldn't that be Geek tragedies (:-}}(Sorry I could not resist )
publishing email exchanges Posted Mar 25, 2006 21:00 UTC (Sat) by stephen_pollei (guest, #23348) [Link] Both sides handled this poorly (including the publication of the exchange -- how many managers will read this and avoid Linux because they think the community is too immature to trust?). Actually I think publishing email exchanges are a great tool. Maybe I wouldn't use the language that the pirate bay legal uses at some point. However if everyone had a default policy publishing emails that threaten legal action without real basis then people will think a little bit more before they act like jerks... I think it was the city manager that was acting immature. The CentOS team was politely trying to help, and was asking the right questions. It was Mr. Taylor that refused to answer simple questions and try working out a good faith responce to the situation.... Larry Lessig has defined "social norm constraints: standards of appropriate behavior enforced by the sanctions of a communitywhether through shame, exclusion, or force." Guilt, empathy, shame, embarrassment and contempt are parts of the emotional foundations of norm compliance and norm enforcement. Also norm enforcement is just as important as laws, and it many cases lower cost. Jonathan Rauch defines "hidden law": the norms, conventions, implicit bargains, and folk wisdoms that organize social expectations, regulate everyday behavior, and manage interpersonal conflicts; and others write books comapring the two -- Law and Social Norms by Eric A. Posner . It's vital to see how law, architecture, social norms and markets all impact and control human behavior; it gives you more tools in your toolbox and lets you not be unduely influenced yourself. Some times you need a hammer .. sometimes screwdriver -- having flexible responces is good.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 5:57 UTC (Sun) by jayorke (guest, #10685) [Link] > I'm sure the CentOS people would seem just as clueless if they suddenly> found themselves facing what they believed to be an urgent problem on an, > oh, AS/400.
I doubt they would call IBM and accuse them of being criminals.
> Both sides handled this poorly (including the publication of the
I don't think it is abnormal for accusations of criminal activity to be responded to in public. When NTP accuses RIM of patent violations it isn't kept very quiet. If this was a normal support call being posted online making fun of someone's lack of technical knowledge (i.e. my computer doesn't work... oops it isn't plugged in) then I would agree that it is inappropriate to disclose the identity of the person who makes the call to the general public. However, falsely accusing someone of criminal activity goes beyond a normal support call and I think the public airing of this is warranted.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 12:07 UTC (Sun) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] I don't think it's the cluelessness people react to, it's the unbelievable arrogance. That's very unprofessional, and I don't understand what they possibly think they will accomplish.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 4:33 UTC (Mon) by Incabulos (guest, #29637) [Link] In the circumstances, I believe the CentOS guys handled themselves in a professional, even exemplary way. By contrast, the replies from Jerry Taylor sounded like they were penned by a petulant 6-year old child. He was entirely obnoxious and recalcitrant throughout the whole exchange, didnt attempt to listen to anything they had to say, repeated the most obvious and irrelevant facts like some sort of magic catchphrase that makes the bad people go away "This is the City of Tuttle, Oklahoma!!!11eleventy", and never showed the slightest bit of gratitude for the patience of the CentOS devs.
In light of the repeated threats that he was making against CentOS, I'm pleasantly surprised that they continued to communicate with him at all - most support staff would have asked their manager about the exchange, who would have turned him over to their legal dept.
Kudos to the CentOS folks.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 7:34 UTC (Mon) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] In the circumstances, I believe the CentOS guys handled themselves in a professional, even exemplary way.Except for that first reply line from CentOS: I feel sorry for your city. As someone who has handled support for some in-house development tools for nearly 2 decades, I know the temptation to be snide in replies to clueless-seeming users is often overpowering, but I have learned that is something to avoid at all costs, because it will sour up all later communications, and obstructs problem solving.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 15:22 UTC (Mon) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link] I know the temptation to be snide in replies to clueless-seeming users is often overpowering, but I have learned that is something to avoid at all costs, because it will sour up all later communications, and obstructs problem solving.100% agreement. Why start off with an attack? What reason exists to act that way other than to start a fight or humiliate the person?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 29, 2006 14:42 UTC (Wed) by maderik (subscriber, #28840) [Link] While perhaps phrased a bit poorly, I think the sentiment the author was trying to express was "It's unfortunate that your city's website is offline..."
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 14:59 UTC (Thu) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link] That's an over-diplomatic interpretation.Most people would interpret it more along the lines of: "I feel sorry for your city, seeing that it has people like you working for it."
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 17:42 UTC (Thu) by maderik (subscriber, #28840) [Link] But it's the first sentence of the first e-mail response. At that time the extent of the problem between keyboard and chair was not fully known. It's only after reading everything else that the second meaning overtakes the first.
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