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A day in the life of the CentOS team
It seems that the CentOS developers recently had a little run-in with the
city manager of Tuttle, Oklahoma, who accused them of having taken over his
city's web servers. The resulting
email exchange has been posted for our amusement. "I am computer
literate! I have 22 years in computer systems engineering and
operation. Now, can you tell me how to remove 'your software' that you
acknowledge you provided free of charge? I consider this 'hacking'. I have
no fear of the media, in fact I welcome this publicity." It all
ends happily, though.
(Log in to post comments)
I have no fear of the media, in fact I welcome this publicity. Posted Mar 25, 2006 15:55 UTC (Sat) by freeio (guest, #9622) [Link] Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 16:18
Tuttle-Hack Posted Mar 25, 2006 16:13 UTC (Sat) by tobor (guest, #36736) [Link] I think this will become a integral part of the intenet history,named the "Tuttle-Hack" ...
Tuttle-Hack Posted Mar 25, 2006 18:35 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] I think it's more likely to get known as a tuttle-tale.
Wonderful stuff; my throat hurts from all the laughing. (I'd contact the FBI about it because that's obviously assault or something only I live in the UK and apparently the FBI don't work over here. Cheapskates.)
;)
Tuttle-Hack Posted Mar 25, 2006 20:31 UTC (Sat) by AndyBurns (subscriber, #27521) [Link] > I live in the UK and apparently the FBI don't work over here
With a little extraordinary rendition the CIA could soon tortu^H^H^H^Hransport you elsewhere ...
Ends happily? Posted Mar 25, 2006 16:21 UTC (Sat) by tcabot (subscriber, #6656) [Link] The only happy thing I can see is that this rude arrogant fool got the public shaming that he so richly deserves.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 16:49 UTC (Sat) by richo123 (guest, #24309) [Link] Yeah but check the "webpage" As of 3/25 12est it is still a CENTOS advert. Can't be too embarassing!
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 17:07 UTC (Sat) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] When I go to http://www.tuttle-ok.gov/ I get to their site just fine--apparently they've "fixed" their problem. I say "fixed" because the site now says that it's "Powered by GovOffice.com". govoffice.com has in its list of partners, one very famous company from Redmond, WA. Netcraft says they're running under IIS on Win 2000, although curiously it says that yesterday and the day before they were running on Win Server 2003, and before that again on Win 2000.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 17:11 UTC (Sat) by diyab (guest, #3196) [Link] Thats the wrong site. The one they are having trouble with is http://www.cityoftuttle.org/ which still comes up with a test page.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 19:23 UTC (Sat) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] Ah, yeah... right. Sorry bout that... <sheepish grin>
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 22:09 UTC (Sun) by Baylink (subscriber, #755) [Link] Both of those things are still true Sunday night...
and I especially love the way tuttle-ok is in *Comic Sans*.
*That* makes me feel real confident in my municipal government.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 18:19 UTC (Sat) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] This is why I will never sign a contract that involves any form of tech support to end users, no matter how "occasional" it is purported to be.I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in the US the average adult is very nearly completely ignorant about even the basic operations of computers and software. It would be funnier if it were not to have such a destructive long-term effect on our society (and economy).
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 18:30 UTC (Sat) by bk (guest, #25617) [Link] Ignorance is not so much the problem as is the sheer arrogance and near-instant readiness to resort to ridiculous legal threats. The weak hide behind their lawyers, I suppose.
but why complain? Posted Mar 26, 2006 15:07 UTC (Sun) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] Seems like fundamental US problems are rising from its current largely atheist shape just the way it was with SU. (judging both from what I see and from what friends of mine who live in US now say)
If the only god left is money (not some unknown one mentioned on them), and the only church left is actually a mix of sport and business... then it's no wonder that users are arrogant, rulers are rude, children hate their fathers and rare folks grok geography, stay alone learn their lessons from history and not step on every rakes around...
Oh well, it's not politically correct(tm) to talk of this. Live fast, die young, who cares.
but why complain? Posted Mar 26, 2006 15:16 UTC (Sun) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link] Good point. If we were all good, law-abiding christians, there would be no cluelessness anymore, no arrogance, no baseless accusations, and so on. Everything would be fine and dandy.
BTW, I have a bridge and a used car for sale you might be interested in...
but why complain? Posted Mar 26, 2006 15:54 UTC (Sun) by bk (guest, #25617) [Link] What a total non sequitur. The United States is, in fact, highly religious. This is off-topic but a recent survey (I don't have the reference offhand) found that nearly half of US adults believe that we are living in the literal Biblical "end times". I believe fundamentalism is the root of a lot of the social problems currently facing the coutry.
but why complain? Posted Mar 26, 2006 21:57 UTC (Sun) by csamuel (✭ supporter ✭, #2624) [Link] Aha - you are another version of the "Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority" meme (via Alec Muffett) and I claim my AU$5!
because it's too ridiculous Posted Mar 26, 2006 23:51 UTC (Sun) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] In fact I would bet that Jerry A. Taylor (City Manager of Tuttle) believes fervently in God, Country and Religion. No, atheism does not seem to be the problem here, sorry.
but why complain? Posted Mar 27, 2006 17:25 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] Umm... could you please not pull a Jerry Taylor on behalf of the rest of us who aren't atheists? Thanks.
but why complain? Posted Mar 27, 2006 19:17 UTC (Mon) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link] It's weird how this pseudo-religious stuff follows me around like a little lost dog. I can post a comment consisting of nothing but a code snippet, and then someone posts a reply claiming that George Bush is the anti-Christ.
but why complain? Posted Mar 30, 2006 19:26 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] That'll teach you to sacrifice goats during those all-night candlelit debugging sessions...
but why complain? Posted Mar 29, 2006 3:17 UTC (Wed) by ccchips (guest, #3222) [Link] Yes. Many American telephone systems will play you a short passage from the Atheist Bible if you simply punch in only part of the number you want.
Then, of course, the phone company will begin warning you to hang up.
Dangerous stuff!
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 18:34 UTC (Sat) by lutchann (subscriber, #8872) [Link] This kind of thing has happened before. People get really paranoid when their computers fail in mysterious ways...
A day in the life of the CentOS team: the thttpd experience Posted Mar 26, 2006 21:22 UTC (Sun) by nicku (subscriber, #777) [Link] At least the CentOS team persisted till the "agrieved" people understood what was happening.The repo man seems to be still in the dark. It may just be that you are supposed to be a tiny bit more clever to be a city manager than a repo man.
Ahh, the need for disclaimers. Posted Mar 27, 2006 15:54 UTC (Mon) by kirkengaard (subscriber, #15022) [Link] "I am not responsible for the actions of the people using my software. I have no implicit relationship to my users except as the developer of software they freely choose to use. The mere fact that my users choose to advertise their use of my software should not be taken as evidence of any more relationship than that already expressed, and is in no way a personal statement which can, or should, be traced to me. The users of my software speak for themselves.
Should you have issues to discuss with any of the users of my software, you will need to contact them personally to address these issues. Contacting the developer over issues with a third party is futile."
Ahh, the need for disclaimers. Posted Mar 27, 2006 16:23 UTC (Mon) by kirkengaard (subscriber, #15022) [Link] hmm. Not strictly true.
"My responsibility for the actions of the users of my software only extends as far as it does for the manufacturer of any other tool. As hand-tool manufacturers are not responsible for the quality of, or expressions contained within, the projects built using their products, no more am I responsible for the content or structure of the projects made using my software, except in as much as the design constraints of my software limit the shape of projects made with said software."
Not only CentOS Posted Mar 25, 2006 18:44 UTC (Sat) by vmole (guest, #111) [Link] This kind of thing used to be a monthly event on the Debian lists, complete with claims of extensive sysadmin experience and threats of police and/or FBI involvement because of the "hacking". The default page was modified several times, and is apparently now sufficiently self explanatory that even idiots can figure out what's going on, since I haven't seen one these for a while. I'm sure the CentOS folks (and any other distributor) is welcome to crib from the Debian default.
Not only CentOS Posted Mar 25, 2006 19:26 UTC (Sat) by joey (subscriber, #328) [Link] Yeah, Debian stopped shipping a modified index.html as of apache 2.0 and just ships the stock apache one. So I assume all that nonsense is redirected to the apache project. It's worth noting the first (and second, and fourth..) question in their faq:http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html
We still get people from time to time who have encountered a system running an earlier version of Debian or apache. Most commonly the person never replies after their mistake is explained though.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 19:36 UTC (Sat) by kokopelli (guest, #11341) [Link] I've probably done worse, and I'm a developer.
We tend to forget that the people who use our software are often extremely busy, under pressure to find a solution, and uncertain how to proceed. Sometimes that comes out... poorly. Especially when everyone is coming from different perspectives and backgrounds... and I'm sure the CentOS people would seem just as clueless if they suddenly found themselves facing what they believed to be an urgent problem on an, oh, AS/400.
Both sides handled this poorly (including the publication of the exchange -- how many managers will read this and avoid Linux because they think the community is too immature to trust?). All of us need to learn to stop and take a deep breath before hitting reply.
Better yet, compose the response and then go do something else for 15 minutes. I know I almost always tone down my question or response when I do this.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 20:07 UTC (Sat) by hpp (guest, #4756) [Link] > How many managers will read this and avoid Linux because they think> the community is too immature to trust?
I think that's a good thing, actually. It means that the clueless
I work for a large corporation that uses Linux, perl ad other open source applications extensively. If our competitors won't, because they feel it is immature, has poor support, as has legal issues, it means our IT department is more efficient than theirs, and in the long term we outcompete them.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 20:26 UTC (Sat) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] Actually I think the arrogance on the Linux side is showing up in all the postings of this email exchange. I remember similar things on the old Amiga BBS's, OS/2, NextOS, BeOS, and various Unix's that no longer exist in any large marketspace (IRIX, Ultrix, etc). The community line would become a mantra of "It means that the clueless will go off to our inferior competitors and in the long term they cannot compete and suffer."
There is a reason that so many Greek tragedies are about hubris and what follies it occurs. We would be better spent learning from history than repeating it.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 21:08 UTC (Sat) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link] I really don't see how he could have been any more accommodating. Companies won't put up with that garbage with paying customers. Why should he when they aren't even paying him? The level of arrogance, aggressiveness, and paranoia were at a level which made conversation impossible.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 22:17 UTC (Sat) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] The level of arrogance I am refering to is the people who decide to make a lark about someone with 22 years IT etc. Sure the fellow comes across as an insufferable goat. I dont see where we get to throw the first stone so to speak.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 0:29 UTC (Sun) by dmaxwell (guest, #14010) [Link] > I dont see where we get to throw the first stone so to speak.
The city manager threw the first stone by threatening legal action and making baseless accusations. No matter how many times or how many way the CentOS dev tried to explain it he only got more and more threatening. He also made the terminal error of claiming technical compentency while making those threats. The CentOS people displayed far more patience than I would have. As the earlier poster pointed out, a commercial operation wouldn't put up with it either.
I would have explained it once then warned him about legal action myself. Bad publicity is the least of what this clown deserves. If I were a taxpayer in that town, I'd be seriously worried about the quality of help my tax dollars were buying.
22 long years Posted Mar 27, 2006 0:45 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] In his resume the guy claims to have been a Program Manager for 22 years at Raytheon. Can you imagine what levels of psychological torture his staff (for whatever programs he managed) must have endured? Oh well, this is just a small vengeance for all those tortured geeks.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 28, 2006 17:09 UTC (Tue) by carcassonne (guest, #31569) [Link] The level of arrogance I am refering to is the people who decide to make a lark about someone with 22 years IT etc22 years proves not much, isn't it ? You'd thought that by that time one could identify such a problem quite easily, or at least have enough clue to know where to look for apart from calling the FBI. Being a monk for 50 years does not necessarily make one a saint.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 25, 2006 22:48 UTC (Sat) by hpp (guest, #4756) [Link] Mind you, the arrogance of my previous post was not from a Linux viewpoint: it was from an IT department viewpoint (and this is at a Fortune 50 company). We find Open Source to be a competitive advantage, and if our competitors don't see it that way, the marketplace will decide who's right. When we benchamrk ouselves against our competitors, we get more done with less money, fewer people and with a higher uptime. As a result, we also get paid better :-)
Incidentally, that also means we feel free to abandon Open SOurce if a superior alternative comes along. Haven't seen that so far - in fact, when a commercial product gets inflicted on us (*cough* Exchange *cough*) it proves to be a royal pain in the behind.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 12:02 UTC (Sun) by job (guest, #670) [Link] when a commercial product gets inflicted on us Most open source products are commercial too, at least if you ask Red Hat, Novell or IBM.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 14:06 UTC (Sun) by hpp (guest, #4756) [Link] > Most open source products are commercial too, at least if you ask> Red Hat, Novell or IBM.
True in the sense that you pay for commercial support. False in the sense that source code is available, we can make local patches, and we can bypass the vendor and do our own development.
One the key costs of commercial products in a large enterprise is integration: making it work with everything else that is out there. Having source code and the ability to make changes implies you can run the product in a different manner than the vendor intended; that you can analyze scalability problems yourself, and that the vendor cannot get away with false answers as to what causes any problems. Open Source saves time and money.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 19:17 UTC (Sun) by job (guest, #670) [Link] Sorry, I don't understand much of your comment. Do you consider open source businesses non-commercial? In what way?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 20:54 UTC (Sun) by hpp (guest, #4756) [Link] I am trying to make a distinction between:
Ah, so you mean... Posted Mar 27, 2006 3:08 UTC (Mon) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] You would have been understood immediately if you used the more explicit terms Free vs. Proprietary:
I think we don't need "Open Source" any more.
Ah, so you mean... Posted Mar 27, 2006 14:42 UTC (Mon) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link] Actually, for proprietary, I'd leave out "closed source" and "don't tinker".
And being even more pedantic, "proprietary" comes from "property", meaning "owned" - and that INCLUDES LINUX! Okay, we don't use that word that way any more, but we can thank the marketing slogan "Unix is Proprietary, Windows is Open" for that ...
Cheers,
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 6:41 UTC (Mon) by job (guest, #670) [Link] What has commercial to do with it? Where does noncommercial closed source fit in ("freeware")?
Why didn't you simply write closed source / open source, or nonfree ("proprietary") / free?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 14:41 UTC (Thu) by Alban (guest, #5500) [Link] Ermm. Shouldn't that be Geek tragedies (:-}}(Sorry I could not resist )
publishing email exchanges Posted Mar 25, 2006 21:00 UTC (Sat) by stephen_pollei (guest, #23348) [Link] Both sides handled this poorly (including the publication of the exchange -- how many managers will read this and avoid Linux because they think the community is too immature to trust?). Actually I think publishing email exchanges are a great tool. Maybe I wouldn't use the language that the pirate bay legal uses at some point. However if everyone had a default policy publishing emails that threaten legal action without real basis then people will think a little bit more before they act like jerks... I think it was the city manager that was acting immature. The CentOS team was politely trying to help, and was asking the right questions. It was Mr. Taylor that refused to answer simple questions and try working out a good faith responce to the situation.... Larry Lessig has defined "social norm constraints: standards of appropriate behavior enforced by the sanctions of a communitywhether through shame, exclusion, or force." Guilt, empathy, shame, embarrassment and contempt are parts of the emotional foundations of norm compliance and norm enforcement. Also norm enforcement is just as important as laws, and it many cases lower cost. Jonathan Rauch defines "hidden law": the norms, conventions, implicit bargains, and folk wisdoms that organize social expectations, regulate everyday behavior, and manage interpersonal conflicts; and others write books comapring the two -- Law and Social Norms by Eric A. Posner . It's vital to see how law, architecture, social norms and markets all impact and control human behavior; it gives you more tools in your toolbox and lets you not be unduely influenced yourself. Some times you need a hammer .. sometimes screwdriver -- having flexible responces is good.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 5:57 UTC (Sun) by jayorke (guest, #10685) [Link] > I'm sure the CentOS people would seem just as clueless if they suddenly> found themselves facing what they believed to be an urgent problem on an, > oh, AS/400.
I doubt they would call IBM and accuse them of being criminals.
> Both sides handled this poorly (including the publication of the
I don't think it is abnormal for accusations of criminal activity to be responded to in public. When NTP accuses RIM of patent violations it isn't kept very quiet. If this was a normal support call being posted online making fun of someone's lack of technical knowledge (i.e. my computer doesn't work... oops it isn't plugged in) then I would agree that it is inappropriate to disclose the identity of the person who makes the call to the general public. However, falsely accusing someone of criminal activity goes beyond a normal support call and I think the public airing of this is warranted.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 12:07 UTC (Sun) by job (guest, #670) [Link] I don't think it's the cluelessness people react to, it's the unbelievable arrogance. That's very unprofessional, and I don't understand what they possibly think they will accomplish.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 4:33 UTC (Mon) by Incabulos (guest, #29637) [Link] In the circumstances, I believe the CentOS guys handled themselves in a professional, even exemplary way. By contrast, the replies from Jerry Taylor sounded like they were penned by a petulant 6-year old child. He was entirely obnoxious and recalcitrant throughout the whole exchange, didnt attempt to listen to anything they had to say, repeated the most obvious and irrelevant facts like some sort of magic catchphrase that makes the bad people go away "This is the City of Tuttle, Oklahoma!!!11eleventy", and never showed the slightest bit of gratitude for the patience of the CentOS devs.
In light of the repeated threats that he was making against CentOS, I'm pleasantly surprised that they continued to communicate with him at all - most support staff would have asked their manager about the exchange, who would have turned him over to their legal dept.
Kudos to the CentOS folks.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 7:34 UTC (Mon) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link] In the circumstances, I believe the CentOS guys handled themselves in a professional, even exemplary way.Except for that first reply line from CentOS: I feel sorry for your city. As someone who has handled support for some in-house development tools for nearly 2 decades, I know the temptation to be snide in replies to clueless-seeming users is often overpowering, but I have learned that is something to avoid at all costs, because it will sour up all later communications, and obstructs problem solving.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 15:22 UTC (Mon) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link] I know the temptation to be snide in replies to clueless-seeming users is often overpowering, but I have learned that is something to avoid at all costs, because it will sour up all later communications, and obstructs problem solving.100% agreement. Why start off with an attack? What reason exists to act that way other than to start a fight or humiliate the person?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 29, 2006 14:42 UTC (Wed) by maderik (subscriber, #28840) [Link] While perhaps phrased a bit poorly, I think the sentiment the author was trying to express was "It's unfortunate that your city's website is offline..."
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 14:59 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link] That's an over-diplomatic interpretation.Most people would interpret it more along the lines of: "I feel sorry for your city, seeing that it has people like you working for it."
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 17:42 UTC (Thu) by maderik (subscriber, #28840) [Link] But it's the first sentence of the first e-mail response. At that time the extent of the problem between keyboard and chair was not fully known. It's only after reading everything else that the second meaning overtakes the first.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 0:56 UTC (Sun) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link] As some posts have said, posting the email exchange is wrong. True, the manager threw the first stone and behaved childishly, but that shouldn't be permission to post the entire thread. The CentOS developer was correct all along and shouldn't have felt anything to gain other than bad blood by going any further.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 1:37 UTC (Sun) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] My view is that when he starts going on about how he welcomes media attention then that makes it ok.
It's wrong to make fun of people when they can't help it, but that's not the case here. Embarassing yourself in public is a part of the joy of life. So long as everyone can have a good laugh at themselves, that's what counts.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 22:19 UTC (Sun) by hughesjr (guest, #29949) [Link] This:"If someone who is computer literate doesn't take care of this situation I will be forced to send these ridiculous e-mails to your local media."
And This:
Make it clear that posting everything should be OK ... even WELCOMED.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 15:39 UTC (Mon) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link] I wish this comment to be read in the most respectful tone possible. CentOS provides something useful for many people. As stated in the exchange, this is done free of charge. Those actions alone are extremely commendable. Diagnosing/solving the gentleman's issues was also very commendable.However, I cannot disagree further about the wisdom of posting the exchange. It is very true that the gentleman was wrong to threaten law enforcement and to have not done basic troubleshooting. It is also very clear the gentleman is not well-versed with computers. Yet what type of exchange it would be was set with the first line of the first response to him. You quoted the line "I have no fear of the media, in fact I welcome this publicity." I would assume that was said in the heat of battle, and was certainly said before the issue had been resolved. The gentleman thought his machines were comprimised -- wrongly -- and reacted as such. His problem was solved, and the exchange was posted. Posting his words, knowing how wrong he was from the start, serves only to humiliate him, invite others to humiliate him, and does nothing positive for Linux or anyone involved.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 21:56 UTC (Mon) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] >Posting his words, knowing how wrong he was from the start, serves only to>humiliate him,
Yes, and why is that bad, in this context? The attitude displayed in his emails, as someone has posted elsewhere in this comment thread, is essentially "I'll yell at you until things work, and then blame you for the problem--since you know how to fix it, you must have caused it in the first place."
Just like a con man depends on people's nice natures to exploit them financially, people with this kind of attitude depend on the victim's instinct to be polite to be able to steamroller their way into getting what they don't deserve. The victim feels guilty standing up to them because it's Not Nice to interrupt, to insist upon proper treatment. There's no repercussions for the bully's behavior, and so he goes on doing it.
This public posting is an example of repercussions for one's uncivil behavior, and I believe it was well-deserved and probably long overdue. (I have a suspicion that a few people around Tuttle might inwardly be grinning if they hear of this, as this kind of behavior doesn't pop out of nowhere...he might well behave like this in other situations too.) Too bad the Tuttle Times is probably not going to do any reporting on the issue, being a small-town paper and not having the leverage of a large media organization to risk angering the local tribal chief, so to speak--since he's a public official, the people of Tuttle, Oklahoma deserve to know how they're being badly represented.
>invite others to humiliate him,
Same as above...
>and does nothing positive for Linux or anyone involved.
No. It does in fact do something positive. A bully got some payback, and I for one (and, it seems, quite a few others) are quite pleased about it. And if it gets around enough, it might prevent a few similar incidents in the future. The one thing I would say on the other side though, as others have, is that the first line of Johnny's first response was probably a poor choice of words to start out with, even though it rings true in light of subsequent events.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 31, 2006 18:08 UTC (Fri) by jmmc (guest, #34939) [Link] clump, your comment is well stated and some part of me initally agreed with your sentiments.
Yet, stepping back a bit, I'm going to side with allesfresser on this:
Sometimes, imh experience, the bully must be bullied (back). I and think this case warranted it. Name dropping (calling) the FBI is just the worst kind of response for a person in his position and situation.
I've found folk in IT to be some of the most well-intentioned, solve-problems-that-aren't-really-my-problem, 'do-no-harm'-type folk I've ever met, in any walk of life, period. IT folks I know solve all kinds of so-called 'technical' problems for people with things that might not even be related to their immediate job (phones, copiers, helping people use their iPods, PIMs) on top of a LOT of 'home user' PC advice to their coworkers, brothers and sister, friends, in-laws, etc. I was naive at first, but I now know there _are_ people who take advantage of IT folks willingness to be mostly goodly-natured problem-solvers first and foremost. Some of the more perceptive 'bullies' have picked this up over time.
It sounded to me like Johnny _wanted_ to help the guy at first, but the OK manager's own arrogance seemed to block him from listening and understanding what Johnny was trying to tell him - shame on him (the OK manager). At least that's how the exchange came off to me.
As well, the gentleman from OK did indeed, begin this volley, and imho, way too aggressively. True, any one of us may have responded differently than Johnny at CentOS, but I did not think Johnny's responses were too out of line in this case. In most of the exchange, Johnny's responses seemed more professional.
Lastly, I'm bothered that the manager (small m) in OK did not know who to properly contact about the status of his city's website when it did not show the content he expected to see. No doubt, his first communication should have been to the administrator of those server(s), hands down. Sans that, combined with his technical ignorance, it was going to get tougher anyway you slice it, right ?. At root, could we not say, his ignorance and inability to keep his composure started this whole situation (isn't that how many conflicts begin) ?. Professionals (and _good_ managers) keep their cool, always, even under even the most stressful of situations, at least that's the experience in my humble work life (23 yrs).
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 1:09 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] Well, I'm usually not big on "this is what I sent to them" posts. But in this case I'll make an exception. I am a resident of Oklahoma City, OK which is not far from Tuttle. I've never heard of this guy, though he does, indeed, seem to be the City Manager of Tuttle, if you can call Tuttle a city. (Don't blink or you'll miss it if you are driving faster than 55mph.)
I have 27 years of computer experience. 18 with Unix-like OSes and I settled on Linux in 1996. So please understand that we Oklahomans are not all like this jack-ass.
Anyway, FWIW, here's what I sent:
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I just read (with some horror) your correspondence with the CentOS Enterprise Linux team. You probably do not understand this, despite your claimed 22 years of experience in computer systems engineering and operation (and that's a laugh!), but they do hard and often thankless work to make an enterprise class operating system available free of charge to those who can benefit from it. Though I imagine that they usually don't often have to deal with users quite as uninformed as the city manager of Tuttle OK.
I am a resident of Oklahoma City. And as a fellow Oklahoma resident, I feel I must say : PLEASE STOP MAKING AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN PUBLIC IN YOUR CAPACITY AS AN OFFICIAL IN OKLAHOMA!
You make us look like a bunch of ignorant hicks.
I would strongly recommend that you try to ameliorate the situation with a sincere (and I do mean sincere) apology. If you do not understand the word "ameliorate" you can read about it at http://www.dictionary.com.
It's all rather bad publicity, and believe me, it's too late to save face. Best to just own up.
I'm doing my best to apologize for you where I can.
-Steve Bergman
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 20:59 UTC (Sun) by hildeb (subscriber, #6532) [Link] So, did he threaten you with legal action as well?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 20:55 UTC (Mon) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] I haven't heard back from him. Then again, I haven't checked my snail mail.
I suppose I could have a "Cease and Desist" from "Yahoo, Hick, and Dork, Attorneys at Law" waiting. ;-)
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 19:55 UTC (Thu) by lysse (guest, #3190) [Link] Since Mr Taylor seems to have demonstrated an inability to even recognise his mistakes, let alone learn from them, surely the appropriate person to write to is his immediate superior?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 6:39 UTC (Sun) by csawtell (subscriber, #986) [Link] Perhaps many of the default index pages are too complex.Might something like this be a bit more appropriate? <html> <head> <title>Web server installed</title> </head> <body> Your web server is installed and working.<br> It is waiting for you to install your WWW site instead of this file. </body> </html> Nothing more, nothing less.
Simpler default index.html Posted Mar 26, 2006 23:25 UTC (Sun) by nicku (subscriber, #777) [Link] I like that suggestion. It would clearly have prevented the problem at Tuttle, but it would not have solved the repo man's problem.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 10:49 UTC (Sun) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] Heh, this brings back memories. Nothing as paranoid as this case, but still quite amusing. I imagine lots of us have similar experiences.I got an angry email from an ISP once, stating I should stop port-scanning one of their client's machines immediately, or they would take steps. I replied I had no idea what they were going on about, so they sent me the client's firewall log. Turns out the guy was trying to reach a site of mine, but had his firewall configured to block all outgoing traffic to port 80. What they were observing was, of course, the browser's repeatedly failing connection attempts. ;-)
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 12:01 UTC (Mon) by Seegras (subscriber, #20463) [Link] Yesyes, I've got those angry firewall-user-mails too. "Your server is trying to break into my machine, at port 113" Well, that was ident, and this guy was of course trying to send mail, and exim automatically connected back with ident..
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 18:40 UTC (Mon) by job (guest, #670) [Link] The FTP data ports (where connections gets opened from the server side) is also a classic...
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 14:48 UTC (Sun) by pfred1 (guest, #35195) [Link] Tuttle? His name's Buttle. There must be some mistake. ...
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 26, 2006 17:43 UTC (Sun) by dps (subscriber, #5725) [Link] Not knowing that someone else, and exactly who else, is hosting your website qualifies you as a top class idiot. Given that information, which is presuambly the subject of a contract, you would think those poeple would be the people to contact first. Failure to understand this after 22 years in computer systems is seriously damning.
The rebuilding *should* have included make sure any websites hosted on the box worked again, which is easy if you have a recent backup. If the hosting people did not have a backup, and used it, I would want to know why.
I guess the centOS people made the mistake of assuming the city manager had 1/4 of a clue. Maybe those tech support people that do not know an arp request is would have fared better.
Neglected domain transfer. Posted Mar 27, 2006 3:37 UTC (Mon) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link] > someone else is hosting your website ...> presumably the subject of a contract AFAICS the hosting provider that used to host the website (at www.cityoftuttle.org) was no longer contracted to do so, and probably should have transferred the domain. > you would think those poeple would be the people to contact first The city manager *did* contact the (ex-)hosting provider (first? No idea), and they initially denied any responsibility for the website in question. Which is fair enough, since they weren't *supposed* to be hosting it any more. The underlying problem is probably that no-one arranged for a domain transfer of the .org domain to the town's new provider. The site at www.tuttle-ok.gov is up and running (on IIS 5.0), the .org address should probably just redirect there. Good luck trying to explain that to the uninitiated :-) http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.tu... http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.ci...
One point at a time Posted Mar 27, 2006 1:14 UTC (Mon) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] If you want to explain something to a person of limited computer literacy (let's put it this way to avoid problems with FBI), stick with one point at a time. In this case, CentOS guys should not have written that CentOS is an OS, that it's free, that they develop it. The message should have been that they don't control the system in question.Trying to get more than one point across is a sure way to be misunderstood. Not that I'm accusing CeontOS guys of anything. Surely they had lots of fun, and shared it with us. Besides, it's a good thing to expose public employees unqualified for their jobs.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 3:46 UTC (Mon) by spot (subscriber, #15640) [Link] Red Hat used to get at least one of these calls a week.
(They may still, I no longer answer the Support phones)
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 16:30 UTC (Mon) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] We used to get emails about this once a day or so. Most people would understand after the first or second message. There would be one or two that would get routed from the CEO's office to us about once a month. Those were the calls that I got to be a people person and realized that most computer support is 50% psychological therapy, 40% patience, and 10% trouble shooting skills.
My idea of hiring student nursing aides and psychology majors didnt go far though..
The paradox of helpfulness Posted Mar 27, 2006 12:12 UTC (Mon) by ctg (subscriber, #3459) [Link] "It all ends happily though".Not really. This guy's problem solving strategy is to find someone, and shout at them until his problem is solved. So all that has happened is that he has been reinforced in his belief that this strategy works. He has shouted. The problem has been solved. The second thing is that this demonstrates the paradox of being helpful. If you go out of your way to help someone, as is this case here, are you thanked? No. It simply confirms to the person that because you are able to solve the problem, then it must have been your fault in the first place - so why must you be thanked? This happens whenever there is a situation where the problem is beyond the comprehension of the persion experiencing the impact of the problem. In other words, all the time in IT. So I don't find this story funny. Just depressingly sad, and certainly without a happy ending.
The paradox of helpfulness Posted Mar 27, 2006 13:22 UTC (Mon) by ordonnateur (guest, #6652) [Link] "It simply confirms to the person that because you are able to solvethe problem, then it must have been your fault in the first place - so why must you be thanked? This happens whenever there is a situation where the problem is beyond the comprehension of the persion experiencing the impact of the problem. In other words, all the time in IT"
You forgot to add, if you solve the problem so easily it confirms that what you do must be really trivial and therefore not worthy of learning by busy [self]important people.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 17:50 UTC (Mon) by jonabbey (subscriber, #2736) [Link] Yeah, Johnny Hughes really shouldn't be doing technical support.
The thing that shocks me the most about this interaction is his behavior, not the City Manager's ignorance.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 18:32 UTC (Mon) by piman (subscriber, #8957) [Link] He didn't want to do tech support. He didn't ask to be emailed by a paranoid jackass. He wanted to hack on a free OS. Regardless, some clueless person is trying to draft him into tech support. They deserve whatever they get.
How would you treat someone who ran up to you on the street and started asking for free computer help, and threatening you if you didn't give it?
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 27, 2006 19:19 UTC (Mon) by jonabbey (subscriber, #2736) [Link] I'd reply that I did not do that.
I wouldn't tell him that I pitied his city for having the poor fortune to employee him.
A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 28, 2006 23:24 UTC (Tue) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] Technically speaking Johnny could have been referring to the fact that the city of Tuttle had been deprived of its precious webpage.
The Register has a follow-up Posted Mar 28, 2006 4:13 UTC (Tue) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] The Register has received an e-mail from Mr Taylor. In the e-mail Mr Taylor makes some points which are difficult to reconcile with his communications with CentOS, particularly "I only got help after threatening to contact the FBI". Perhaps more accuract would have been "I still got help even after threatening to contact the FBI".
NOT A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 30, 2006 15:06 UTC (Thu) by Alban (guest, #5500) [Link] For the other side of the coin have a look at "The IT Crowd"if You can Find it On Us Television
http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/I/itc...
NOT A day in the life of the CentOS team Posted Mar 31, 2006 12:48 UTC (Fri) by Klavs (subscriber, #10563) [Link] You'll have to link more specificly - as I can't see any relevance on the sites you link to, in regards to this article.
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