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Source availability

Posted Jan 6, 2006 15:37 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1)
In reply to: The Grumpy Editor's Obviously Incorrect 2006 Predictions by Duncan
Parent article: The Grumpy Editor's Obviously Incorrect 2006 Predictions

"My "safe" prediction is that LWN will /continue/ to advocate FLOSS in name only, while it remains closed source itself."

I have to say I resent this somewhat. I don't believe I need to defend my free software credentials - beyond the occasional kernel patch, I put an entire book under a free license last year. "In name only" indeed.

The LWN source remains unreleased because I've never found the time to do the security audit, put together the (non-trivial) build instructions, deal with the obvious screwups, create a distribution, put together a mailing list, and get it together to accept bug reports and patches. I want to put the source out there - it's not like we derive any particular advantage from keeping it to ourselves. But when it is put next to keeping the content flowing and figuring out out how to keep LWN alive, spending a week getting a source distribution together just hasn't risen toward the top of the list yet.


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Source availability

Posted Jan 6, 2006 16:37 UTC (Fri) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]

I understand all you've said, and agree to some extent or I wouldn't have
been able to subscribe and continue my subscription to this point.
However, with all due respect, how long has the code been promised? For
comparison, how long has the SCO case been dragging on and on and on?

In the simple case, you wouldn't /have/ to do /all/ the things you list.
Doing some sort of a security audit is of course a very good idea, as
it /is/ after all running your site. However, that's a good idea in /any/
case, as I'm sure you know better than I all the arguments about security
thru obscurity, having (I'm sure) mentioned them many times in your
articles over the years, so it's NOT something that should be directly
related to releasing the site source. Talking about which... one hopes
that at least the code handling the personal info and CC transactions for
the subscriptions is audited. That's MY info you got in there! =8^|

The build-instructions as well would be nice. However, the mailing list
thing and the like aren't absolute necessities. Good thing to have, sure,
but the deal is, once the source is out there, others can use it if
desired, supported or not. Source without support isn't perfect, but if
the lack of support is obstructing the availability of source, the perfect
is the enemy of the good, and that shouldn't be. If you are lucky,
someone might get interested and take up maintainership, easing the burden
of support even for this site on you. If not, the source is at least out
there to be used if someone finds it interesting or useful. Whether they
do or not is then their problem, not yours.

What about something on sourceforge or the like? They make it easy to
setup most of the infrastructure, and then you can simply point a link
from the LWN FAQ there. I'm not technical enough to be a very good coder,
but am a regular on a couple lists already (including the PAN newsreader
user and dev lists, look them up on gmane), with the intent of handling
the mundane questions that get asked and re-asked, answering the simple
stuff, and otherwise doing what I can to coordinate the lists such that
the primary developer has time to do more of that and less replying to
questions on the list. Perhaps the same could happen here? Again, it'd
certainly be better to get someone with more site dev and/or python
qualifications, but whatever. I can commit the time, and python's on my
list to learn already, if it helps. Can you lookup my info to mail me or
would you prefer I mail you (assuming I'd be of help at all)?

Anyway, know that it /does/ bother some of us, that a site that's a
flagship, perhaps /the/ flagship, of the Linux news community, doesn't
consider open code worthwhile enough to have made it available, years
after making the promise. It's a bit of inconsistency and a conflicting
double message, which we wish wasn't the case.

Also know that this inconsistency bothers at least a few of us enough that
it will eventually interfere with continued subscriptions, very
regrettably, as we really /do/ believe in the message LWN otherwise
spreads to the world -- enough to actually back it up with money. (I
don't like to talk about it, but if you saw my budget, you'd see what a
sacrifice... but it's not the money, it's the principles, and it's a
sacrifice well worth it... save for one inconsistency.)

Honestly bothered, because I /do/ care.

Duncan

Source availability

Posted Jan 6, 2006 17:44 UTC (Fri) by tjc (subscriber, #137) [Link]

The thing that stands out to me (based on the length of your posts) is that Jon is busy and you're not. Don't you think your time would be better spent working on something yourself, instead of trying to get someone else who is already busy to do something you want done? Get you some perspective, man!

Source availability

Posted Jan 6, 2006 18:00 UTC (Fri) by evgeny (subscriber, #774) [Link]

> Also know that this inconsistency bothers at least a few of us enough that it will eventually interfere with continued subscriptions,

Please learn to live in a democratic society. Given the poll
1) Release the LWN sources today (with all the related consequences),
or
2) Let Jonathan decide as he sees fit

I'm damn sure the majority of the LWN subscribers would choose 2). Do you stop paying taxes or even leave the country only because the candidate you voted for didn't get the chair? Yes, as whoever said it (Churchill?) democracy is bad, but there is nothing better.

_I_ personally pay for the superb LWN content, and would object if part of my money goes to cover the burden of releasing the code instead of writing a new "Grumpy" article. There are literally thousands coders out there who are capable of doing the LWN machinery in a very reasonable amount of time, while there are very, very few and far between who can deliver the Linux coverage like the LWN staff does.

Source availability

Posted Jan 7, 2006 16:21 UTC (Sat) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link]

Get up and stand on your own Duncan, use 'I' instead of 'we'. Fluffing your feathers to make yourself appear bigger is lame. Please don't include me in your "group".

Corbet has a mountain of work behind him that shows his committment to freedom.

P.S. Please put more content and less filler in your posts.

Source availability

Posted Jan 9, 2006 22:02 UTC (Mon) by sbishop (subscriber, #33061) [Link]

This rubbish made me so mad that I bumped up my subscription level... Corbet doesn't owe us anything!

Seconded

Posted Jan 11, 2006 6:13 UTC (Wed) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]

Same here, though I haven't *extended* my subscription just yet
(Christmas cc bills...). If only I actually *was* a project leader...
that would involve pulling out my own finger.

Duncan, your threat of withdrawing your subscription is childish in the
extreme. You subscribe to the content of the LWN publication; if you
want the site code published that is completely separate work and you
should offer Jon professional rates to do the job properly rather than
having a tantrum.

On the other hand, Jon, Duncan is right to point out that the site code
was promised long ago and is still 'coming soon'. Three years ago it
might have been cutting-edge and gathered a significant developer
community; at this point (while it is still a delightfully clean
interface) there are blog servers galore out there which have somewhat
stolen the limelight from a developer's perspective.

Rather than challenging you to put Duncan's money where his mouth is,
I'll simply request that you conduct a straw poll on a timetable for
eventual release of the site code. I'll tempt fate by suggesting an
initial 'all rights reserved' subscriber-only release to assist in the
security audit phase. It will be no surprise if you prefer not to do
such a thing.

Incidentally, there appears to be no licence granted by Eklektix for
copying of LWN content. Is LWN content published on an 'all rights
reserved' basis or have I missed a licence somewhere?

Seconded

Posted Jan 11, 2006 9:34 UTC (Wed) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link]

> Duncan, your threat of withdrawing your
> subscription is childish in the extreme.
> [I]f you want the site code published that
> is completely separate work and you should
> offer Jon professional rates to do the job
> properly rather than having a tantrum.

That's a reasonable argument, but it doesn't account for personal beliefs,
childish or not. OK, I've trimmed this a bit but it's still long. Oh,
well...

I left MS after a decade for my beliefs in Freedom. I choose to run
Linux, not one of BSDs, for those beliefs. I've had exchanges with people
who demanded I stop calling proprietaryware slaveryware, for my beliefs in
freedom. It came out that the folks requesting that believed in "Open
Source" rather than "Free Software", as the argument goes. They said it
wasn't worth sacrificing for, it was just a choice. I, OTOH, can't
honestly say that I'd be willing to give my life for it as yet, as many of
the US founding fathers gave their lives or those of their family and
friends, but I equate it with the same principles, and think I /should/ be
at that point -- it's FREEDOM at stake, after all, and I'm not at all sure
that a life without that freedom to express myself would be worth living.
I /have/ actually contemplated the possibility that acting in accordance
with my beliefs may one day mean I have to choose between physical
freedom, and freedom of mind and spirit. IOW, there may be a time
when I'm imprisoned for my belief in Freedom, software or otherwise, and
I've faced that possibility

That's what I BELIEVE. If it's "childish" or "radical", so be it.
However, a good portion of the reason I subscribed to LWN was because I
believe in the message and service it does and can present to this
community that for myriad personal reasons (not all directly parallel to
mine, certainly) has happened to be supporting freedom in their actions,
if not always their full beliefs.

I've been rather more active onsite this year, but last year, there were
several months I didn't get to LWN hardly at all. Still, I considered my
subscription worth every penny, despite my not visiting at all that month,
because of the message and service LWN provides to the community.

Would that I /could/ provide those professional services you mention. I'd
donate them in a heartbeat, no charge, because I /believe/ in the message.
Meanwhile, LWN isn't presenting the clear clarion call of Freedom that
it /could/ be presenting, because while the /words/ are there,
the /actions/ have been partially missing for more than two years. If the
promise hadn't been made, it would be one thing, but it /was/ made, and
two years later, this representative of our community looks like it says
one thing, but can't 100% support what it /says/ in actions.

When I was last shopping for a mobo, I visited the sites of the
front-runners. One had everything in what appeared to be sfx-exe
slaveryware format. The docs, exes. The BIOS updates, exes. Everything,
exes. They got an email saying exactly why they lost out on the sale, and,
I'm told, now at least have the standard format documentation and BIOS
update packages, not proprietaryware executables (altho their Linux
support still sucks). Maybe my email had a part in that, maybe it didn't,
but I sent it. The other (Tyan) not only provided standard PDF docs and
zip file bios update packages, but they had Linux FAQ pages for most of
their products, and provided lmsensors config files (plus slaveryware
Linux drivers for some onboard chips, unfortunately, but you can't win
them all). The choice was obvious. Same story with the last hard drives I
bought. Of course SATA hard drives are pretty much standardized and "just
work" in Linux. Still, one choice listed only MSWormOS releases as
supported, the other listed a number of alternatives including Linux.
You /know/ which one I ended up buying.

When I switched to Linux, I ended up with Mandrake. About a year and a
half later, I ended up switching to Gentoo, in part because I could no
longer in good conscience support Mandrake with my money OR time and
personal investment, because part of my investment would be going to
support the slaveryware they licensed for their paid product.

Given the above, it should be no surprise that I'm unable to in good
conscience continue supporting LWN. Would that it were not so! Stating I
can't, however, isn't a threat, it's a statement of fact, of belief, of
following thru on that belief, as a man of principle doing his best to be
a man of personal integrity.

For those who can continue to support LWN and even up their subscriptions,
more power too them and good for LWN! The service to the community, mixed
message tho it may be, is still there. I'm glad someone can support them
in it. Unfortunately, I cannot. For me personally, just as I had to jump
ship from MS, just as I now cannot support NVidia, just as I had to switch
from Mandrake, I have to, with regrets, pull my support for LWN, until its
actions are once again in 100% agreement with the message it's promoting
with its speech, a message I 100% believe in. It's not a choice for me.
It has become a matter of acting in accordance with MY beliefs. If I were
to fail to do so, LWN's actions wouldn't matter to me any more as I'd be
the one whose words failed to agree with his actions, a man whose actions
betrayed his belief.

If being a man of belief, of personal integrity, is childish, then I'll
gladly be childish, or radical, or whatever other label you choose.
That's external, your choice, something I don't control. It doesn't
change my internal beliefs or integrity, nor can it.

I don't mean to offend, and in no way am I condemning others for not
holding the same principles, as these are mine, others have their own, and
I acknowledge that. This is, however, something I must do, or it'll be a
failure of my integrity.



That, BTW, is why it doesn't much concern me how cleaned up the code
is, or what continuing support there may be, altho I agree a security
audit is probably necessary for practical reasons. Clean code is good, but
available code is better than unavailable code, clean or not. If it's
unavailable, there's one person that can clean it. Once it's available,
in whatever form, others at least have the /option/ of using it, cleaning
it if necessary first, an option not available if the code isn't
available.

The promise was made, someone in the FLOSS community's word was given. It
hasn't been delivered upon, and because that someone is held up as a
representative of that community, the failure to deliver on that promise
is a failure for the entire community. If I continue to support that
representative as a spokesperson and beacon of that community, I too am at
fault. It's my integrity called into question as well, the more so due to
my continued support.

Back to your post, however. I don't have the talent to donate to help the
job get done, but that doesn't mean I'm unwilling to help, even tho I
don't expect to ever make use of the code myself except as a website
visitor. Admittedly, what I can provide is little more than a token
amount, but this is something I believe in enough to do so. Jon has my
personal contact info available, if he's interested, and I'll throw what I
can in to help, meager tho it may be. I'm not asking for the code to
appear immediately, as I recognize that's demanding the impossible, but
some visible movement this year would be nice, and I think entirely
reasonable.

Duncan

Passion -- without understanding?

Posted Jan 16, 2006 0:18 UTC (Mon) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]

OK, I think everyone 'gets it' that you're passionate about software and
data freedom. But do you 'get it' that the LWN site code does not
restrict your freedom in *any* way?

If you used the LWN site code on your own machine, it would be perfectly
understandable for you to want it to be Free Software. But you don't,
the software is unreleased.

Before the site code can safely be published it requires a thorough
security audit -- anything less and it is not only the site's integrity
and the publishers' servers which may be compromised but also
(potentially) subscribers' financial details.

I don't understand why you seem to think the release of the site software
is a 'freedom' issue. It's not. Can you really be so worked up about a
vague release timetable not adhered to?

Copying content

Posted Jan 11, 2006 15:05 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

"Incidentally, there appears to be no licence granted by Eklektix for copying of LWN content. Is LWN content published on an 'all rights reserved' basis or have I missed a licence somewhere?"

Another one of those "on the list" items. What we want to do is to put all non-subscription text under something like the CC attribution license. In this case, it's mostly a matter of sorting out copyright notices with guest author content (which they continue to own), stuff taken from the net, etc. Certainly, in every case where somebody has asked to republish content, we've let them - and we've not bugged those who just did it without asking.

If I have my way, we'll be making some moves over the coming months to push some things forward and stop just running in place. Stay tuned.

Source availability

Posted Jan 7, 2006 4:14 UTC (Sat) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link]

Fearless leader wrote:

But when it is put next to keeping the content flowing and figuring out out how to keep LWN alive, spending a week getting a source distribution together just hasn't risen toward the top of the list yet.

Hear hear!

As a reasonably long term subscriber I've got to say that I'd much much much rather see you devote your time to keeping LWN afloat & assuring its future than creating Yet Another CMS, it's not like we're short of choice already.

The whole open source thing doesn't mean that anything you write has to automatically be open sourced, it merely says that if you distribute something it should be open source.

Source availability

Posted Jan 7, 2006 22:08 UTC (Sat) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link]

Suffice it to say that you have done a fantastic and admirably unbiased job (to the extent that any of us are really unbiased). You've kept the ship afloat when it would have been easier to just let it sink. And, in my view, you have sacrificed to be able to do something that you believe in.

Thank You.

Source availability

Posted Jan 8, 2006 18:42 UTC (Sun) by barbara (subscriber, #3014) [Link]

Jon and LWN certainly does walk the walk (and not just talk) with regards
to FLOSS. As a long-term subscriber and reader of LWN, I have found the
articles, reviews, and news *always* supportive of FLOSS. How many Linux
news sites publish announcements of new FLOSS software release
announcements? In the old days of Linux (when it was the new kid on the
block) many sites did. Not now, though. How many do detailed comparative
reviews (Grumpy Editor Series); how many cover the kernel in such detail?;
how many do thoughtful pieces on the political problems facing FLOSS and
Linux (aka DRM, IP (Internet Piracy), etc.)?? Zippo. LWN stands out
above them all. It takes time to be the best and I would far rather have
this outstanding content continue rather than have LWN staff spend lots of
their time on releasing the code. Jon has said it will be released and I'm
sure this will be done. In the meanwhile, I'm looking forward to another
outstanding year from LWN.


Source availability

Posted Jan 12, 2006 6:57 UTC (Thu) by larryr (guest, #4030) [Link]

The reason I am not a subscriber any more is the site continues to not have what I consider to be minimum necessary features such as user profiles and comment moderation/filtering-- basic features of readily available software which could be used for LWN.

Larry

Source availability

Posted Jan 12, 2006 15:31 UTC (Thu) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link]

I second that, and I'll add something else that's sorely missing to the list: the ability to get email notifications for comment replies even when you're not subscribed as a "professional hacker".

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